Miatapower List Archive

This read-only message was archived from a public mail list.
Mail From: Marcel Melters <(email redacted)>

Dear all,

While not looking for a "my s/c is better than yours" discussion, I
thought I'd consult this list to get some pointers on for/against the
different options.
I'm looking for a usable power boost, but don't want to put the engine
at risk.
So far, I think I favor the Sebring one, as it seems to be the cleanest
package overall, and gives a good power boost. On the other hand, are
there specific reasons to go the FM route, or even a different one ?
( I'm not against the idea of 200 bhp in my mx-5, but are there
drawbacks ? )

Any input much appreciated,

happy to have seen the light, finally got an MX-5

m. melters

This read-only message was archived from a public mail list.
Mail From: "Mel Hoagland" <(email redacted)>


Marcel,

There are positives to either and some drawbacks. You will probably get more
responses than you expect on this one.

I am an FM owner and the biggest fan. For overall seemingly limitless power,
an FM system is definitely the way to go. I don't believe there's another
off-the-shelf upgrade for a Miata that even comes close. Upgrade-ability is
better than any (you can start with one of the smaller systems and add an
intercooler, a computer and bigger injectors one stage at a time). Cost per
hp is probably best (though they're all close).

Drawbacks include time-consuming installation (you would probably want to do
it yourself if you don't know a mechanic who's already done it). Actually, I
consider this one of the plusses - I know the system intimately from doing
my own install. In the past BOVs were a problem, but the service you get
from Bill (Dealer Alternative) and Corky (Bell Engineering) really turn this
"problem" into a non-issue.

That leads into the biggest plus of all - actually two plusses. The service
and support offered by Bill and Corky can't possibly be matched by anyone in
the known universe, in ANY industry (no, that's NOT an exaggeration). For my
money, that's what makes the FM a best buy. The second big plus is the
powerlist. This is a unique resource available for free to all its
subscribers, and it's there 24 hours, 7 days a week. I've been helped out of
many jams by the incredible generosity of its members (which include Bill
and Corky). They're also a bunch of really cool people.

The Aerodyne has improved greatly (from what I've heard) and offers a
low-powered turbo for less money. Don't know what the service and support
are like, but the impression I have is favorable (but there's no way it
comes close to the FM's). Boasts no lag (though the FM has virtually none).

Superchargers offer amazing, instantaneous off-the-line power (more like a
V8), but can't come close to a big turbo at the top end. The systems are
simple to install (I've heard claims of a couple of hours or so, but DON'T
believe that one - it's marketing). Some of the serious drawbacks include
less efficiency than a turbo, producing higher temps and knocking. There has
also been a history of poor reliability, design and engineering. For
simplicity, and if you're not looking for a 200 hp+ car, this might be the
right choice. Warning - Sebring has a terrible reputation when it comes to
customer support. Might be improving. Don't know about Autorotor.

Hope this helps, but it's likely to have brought up more questions. (Think
carefully and buy an FM.)

above all - HAVE FUN

Mel
------------------------------------------------------------
Mel Hoagland ((email redacted))
"Wheezy" black 96 FMII vrrooommmm


-----Original Message-----
From: Marcel Melters <(email redacted)>
To: miata power <(email redacted)>
Date: Tuesday, January 18, 2000 4:42 PM
Subject: Which Supercharger for my '92 mx-5 1.6L


>Dear all,
>
>While not looking for a "my s/c is better than yours" discussion, I
>thought I'd consult this list to get some pointers on for/against the
>different options.
>I'm looking for a usable power boost, but don't want to put the engine
>at risk.
>So far, I think I favor the Sebring one, as it seems to be the cleanest
>package overall, and gives a good power boost. On the other hand, are
>there specific reasons to go the FM route, or even a different one ?
>( I'm not against the idea of 200 bhp in my mx-5, but are there
>drawbacks ? )
>
>Any input much appreciated,
>
>happy to have seen the light, finally got an MX-5
>
>m. melters
>

This read-only message was archived from a public mail list.
Mail From: (email redacted)



Here is what I would do if I wanted simple.

I would buy the following components... this is the cleanest method of
forced induction possible in my opinion.

FM-ECU and Larger Injectors.
Aerodyne Turbo and manifold.
BEGI racer Intercooler and tubes.
Dealer Alt/BEGI downpipe and high flow cat.
Dealer Alt turbo dual exhaust.
ACT Clutch Flywheel and pressure plate.

This is clean as it gets.

No monkeying with the fuel system.
No drilling oil return lines
Good for up to 10 PSI of boost according to corky (maybe 12 with the new
turbo)
Excellent spool-up characteristics
no belts to muck with.
no cracking of the head.

and last but not least... more power.

The only reason not to go with an FM-II/III is the fact that you have to do
a little bit more initial work. You end up with the best system available,
and you know that everything was done right.

If you want a 4 hour install remember you will get an equal return for your
time... spend 15-20 hours installing a proper system and enjoying the
rewards of it...

The Sebring Supercharger is not that much of a power boost... as a matter of
fact a good normally aspirated engine can beat it, as well as my stock mazda
323 GTX.

Finally you are more likely to get detonation with the sebring kit than you
are with the FM-II.

Mark

>
>
> This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
> --------------736594CE33BC9500ACF82F3B
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
>
> Dear all,
>
> While not looking for a "my s/c is better than yours" discussion, I
> thought I'd consult this list to get some pointers on for/against the
> different options.
> I'm looking for a usable power boost, but don't want to put the engine
> at risk.
> So far, I think I favor the Sebring one, as it seems to be the cleanest
> package overall, and gives a good power boost. On the other hand, are
> there specific reasons to go the FM route, or even a different one ?
> ( I'm not against the idea of 200 bhp in my mx-5, but are there
> drawbacks ? )
>
> Any input much appreciated,
>
> happy to have seen the light, finally got an MX-5
>
> m. melters
>
> --------------736594CE33BC9500ACF82F3B
> Content-Type: text/x-vcard; charset=us-ascii;
> name="marcel.melters.vcf"
> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
> Content-Description: Card for Marcel Melters
> Content-Disposition: attachment;
> filename="marcel.melters.vcf"
>
> begin:vcard
> n:Melters;Marcel
> tel;cell:+31 655 337231
> tel;fax:+31 40 29 27907
> tel;home:+31 40 29 54345
> tel;work:+31 40 29 54474
> x-mozilla-html:TRUE
> org:Philips ED&T;Analogue Simulation
> adr:;;Assepoester 22;Eindhoven;;NL-5629 KE;Netherlands
> version:2.1
> email;internet:(email redacted)
> title:support engineer
> fn:Marcel Melters
> end:vcard
>
> --------------736594CE33BC9500ACF82F3B--
>

This read-only message was archived from a public mail list.
Mail From: (email redacted)


well if i were you i would go with the GReddy turbo kit.........it would give
you around 140hp to the wheels.......it cost only about $1200-$1500(depending
on who you get if from)........its a very easy kit to install and doesn't use
a lot of parts......this is the way i would go

Jared
96 Black
Austin,Tx

This read-only message was archived from a public mail list.
Mail From: "Mel Hoagland" <(email redacted)>


Is that all a GReddy gets you? 30 to 40 additional horses at the rear
wheels? In that case, don't waste your money. Doesn't a BEGI stage I cost
around $2000 for a 60 to 70 hp gain? Well, my figures may be off a bit
(maybe a big bit), but it still sounds like GReddy is a bad deal (plus over
and over again I'm reminded how much like "greedy" the name GReddy sounds -
their products tend to be WAY overpriced).

There's also the unsurpassed, or even unmatched, service and support Bell
and DA give you. For me, that's worth spending twice as much. Too bad most
of us don't find out the value of exceptional service until we've gotten
burned badly by truly rotten service.

Mel
------------------------------------------------------------
Mel Hoagland ((email redacted))
"Wheezy" black 96 FMII vrrooommmm


-----Original Message-----
From: (email redacted) <(email redacted)>
To: (email redacted) <(email redacted)>
Date: Tuesday, January 18, 2000 11:27 PM
Subject: Re: Which Supercharger for my '92 mx-5 1.6L


>
>well if i were you i would go with the GReddy turbo kit.........it would
give
>you around 140hp to the wheels.......it cost only about
$1200-$1500(depending
>on who you get if from)........its a very easy kit to install and doesn't
use
>a lot of parts......this is the way i would go
>
>Jared
>96 Black
>Austin,Tx
>

This read-only message was archived from a public mail list.
Mail From: (email redacted)


ok i'm going to ask you guys one question.........i don't mean to offend
anyone it's just a simple question

Why does EVERYONE on this list and the other Miata list talk so highly of
Bell Egineering anf the FM kits and so lowly of the Greddy kit?? from people
i've personally talked to i've heard nothing but great things about
GReddy......and that the BEGI and FM kits aren't worth all that extra money.

I know that i can get 150hp(to the wheels) from the GReddy kit (that's on a
1.8L motor) for $1200....i can get a intercooler(used) for about $500 and a
decent boost controller for $300......all that added to the GReddy kit would
give me around 220hp to the wheels....to me that sounds like a bargin.

another question.........how many people out there own GReddy kits?? and are
you happy with them??

Jared
96 Black
Austin,Tx

This read-only message was archived from a public mail list.
Mail From: (email redacted)



I suspect he'll see the Bell/DA service is a theme that is hard to beat. if
these guys didn't have such excellent support and service many others would
have considered offering forced induction kits... but with Corky and Bill
around it's too much of an uphill battle.

Mark

>
> There's also the unsurpassed, or even unmatched, service and support Bell
> and DA give you. For me, that's worth spending twice as much. Too bad most
> of us don't find out the value of exceptional service until we've gotten
> burned badly by truly rotten service.
>
> Mel
> ------------------------------------------------------------
> Mel Hoagland ((email redacted))
> "Wheezy" black 96 FMII vrrooommmm

This read-only message was archived from a public mail list.
Mail From: Ray & Cindy Ayala <(email redacted)>




(email redacted) wrote:
>... I know that i can get 150hp(to the wheels) from the GReddy kit (that's on a
> 1.8L motor) for $1200....

True


>...i can get a intercooler(used) for about $500 and a
> decent boost controller for $300......all that added to the GReddy kit would
> give me around 220hp to the wheels....

Maybe on a dyno, but at that HP level driveability without an aftermarket ECU
really sucks, and with a Greddy it may be hard to even reach 220 HP without a
larger downpipe (does anyone sell one?). And don't forget the cost of all the
custom intake plumbing required for the IC.

This read-only message was archived from a public mail list.
Mail From: "Nathan Ramsey" <(email redacted)>


I'd suggest you search the archives...there is a TON of info on this topic
(alot by Steve Searle with is GREAT) and really answered alot of my
questions. The kit is not horrible, it just may end up costing a bit more
in the long run and you won't get as much raw power as easily as the FM
kits. BUT, for a $1300 start I could not pass it up...add to that a $50
used BEGI AFPR and J&S and you have a decent kit for about $1200 less than a
BEGI stage one. The tinker factor will be higher if you want to upgrade,
and you may have to use your inginuity as the upgrade path is not as laid
out but I would rather take a small initial hit and put money into it a bit
at a time that pound my cc with the $4600 FM kit...If I had the money I
would...but not now.

Nate soon w/Greddy


----- Original Message -----
From: <(email redacted)>
To: <(email redacted)>
Sent: Tuesday, January 18, 2000 8:50 PM
Subject: Re: Which Supercharger for my '92 mx-5 1.6L


>
> ok i'm going to ask you guys one question.........i don't mean to offend
> anyone it's just a simple question
>
> Why does EVERYONE on this list and the other Miata list talk so highly of
> Bell Egineering anf the FM kits and so lowly of the Greddy kit?? from
people
> i've personally talked to i've heard nothing but great things about
> GReddy......and that the BEGI and FM kits aren't worth all that extra
money.
>
> I know that i can get 150hp(to the wheels) from the GReddy kit (that's on
a
> 1.8L motor) for $1200....i can get a intercooler(used) for about $500 and
a
> decent boost controller for $300......all that added to the GReddy kit
would
> give me around 220hp to the wheels....to me that sounds like a bargin.
>
> another question.........how many people out there own GReddy kits?? and
are
> you happy with them??
>
> Jared
> 96 Black
> Austin,Tx
>

This read-only message was archived from a public mail list.
Mail From: Larry Alster <(email redacted)>




(email redacted) wrote:
>
> ok i'm going to ask you guys one question.........i don't mean to offend
> anyone it's just a simple question
>
> Why does EVERYONE on this list and the other Miata list talk so highly of
> Bell Egineering anf the FM kits and so lowly of the Greddy kit?? from people
> i've personally talked to i've heard nothing but great things about
> GReddy......and that the BEGI and FM kits aren't worth all that extra money.

Because the Greddy kits suck. The manifolds break, there is no tech
support and there is no upgrade path unless you buy things from DA and
BEGI anyway. The attitude of Greddy sucks too.
>
> I know that i can get 150hp(to the wheels) from the GReddy kit (that's on a
> 1.8L motor) for $1200....i can get a intercooler(used) for about $500 and a
> decent boost controller for $300......all that added to the GReddy kit would
> give me around 220hp to the wheels....to me that sounds like a bargin.

Your funny. I'd love to see you add an intercooler and a boost
controller and get 220 RWHP.
>
> another question.........how many people out there own GReddy kits?? and are
> you happy with them??

Before you start throwing out info like this read the archives and
follow the list for awhile.
Yes there are a few Greddy kit owners out there. Some like the kit but
a lot realize that they would have been better off doing a BEGI Stage I.
>
> Jared
> 96 Black
> Austin,Tx

--
Larry

White Knight 1991 Crystal White #99 CSP
Silver Bullet 1992 Silverstone #17 EM BEGI Stage IV Turbo +
Honey B 1992 Sunburst Yellow

Low Country Miata
Masters Miata
RAGS 074

This read-only message was archived from a public mail list.
Mail From: (email redacted)



Problem with the Greddy kit is that you end up buying the same stuff as the
Bell/FM kit to get to the same place later on. Also I gather that fit and
finish is less than perfect and technical support is non-existant.

The Intercooler you get for the Greddy is doubtful to be a 6x18 inch beauty,
and even if it were then you still have all the plumbing to deal with. I
don't know if the Greddy has a watercooled jacket. There is no proper fuel
management much less a whole computer and new injectors like the FM kit has.

I don't know anyone on this list that has gotten an honest 220 HP without
new injectors and a computer, or additional injectors and a piggyback unit.
there simply is not enough time for the stock injectors to deliver enough
fuel simply by increasing the injector duty cycle.

You can get the Greddy kit up to 220 HP (I think) but it takes a lot of
effort. I also remember something about the turbo being smaller, and that
means more heat in the intake charge at high boost and high RPM. It may be
the same size turbo.

I would have to say that you buy about $1500 in technical support when you
purchase the BEGI/FM kits... Advice that is worth it's weight in gold. On
the other hand if you are an automotive engineer/thermal dynamics expert you
should be building your own system.

Don't get me wrong, there are some shortcomings with the BEGI and FM
systems, and I have ranted about them in the past. However I doubt you will
find a better support network anywhere for any turbo system.

Finally the most important test... drive a Greddy based system, then drive
an FM-II... I think that you will find a world of difference. I know that
there are Greddy based systems pumping out some good numbers in miata's so
don't flame me... I also know that everyone of them seems to have a large
intercooler, computer, and larger injectors. (1200+1200+500=2900) plus the
1200 for the greddy kit... all of a sudden you are up to 4100 dollars. Not
exactly a bargin... Yes you can do it cheaper in pieces, without any advice,
and no one else to share data with.

Mark

>
>
> ok i'm going to ask you guys one question.........i don't mean to offend
> anyone it's just a simple question
>
> Why does EVERYONE on this list and the other Miata list talk so highly of
> Bell Egineering anf the FM kits and so lowly of the Greddy kit?? from people
> i've personally talked to i've heard nothing but great things about
> GReddy......and that the BEGI and FM kits aren't worth all that extra money.
>
> I know that i can get 150hp(to the wheels) from the GReddy kit (that's on a
> 1.8L motor) for $1200....i can get a intercooler(used) for about $500 and a
> decent boost controller for $300......all that added to the GReddy kit would
> give me around 220hp to the wheels....to me that sounds like a bargin.
>
> another question.........how many people out there own GReddy kits?? and are
> you happy with them??
>
> Jared
> 96 Black
> Austin,Tx
>

This read-only message was archived from a public mail list.
Mail From: (email redacted)



One thing that is right about this... It's a better path than the Sebring
Supercharger. I understand the reluctance to spend $4600 off the bat, but
the two systems are in a totally different league (Greddy vs FM-II).

FWIW, I did it backwards my first time... and this time too! :)

I bought my parts in order of least effective results.

I had a '95 that I purchased a used Autorotor for... but first I bought the
FM-ECU, headers, Cat back exhaust, larger injectors, and clutch... I put
everything together to work out the bugs Normally Aspirated, and dyno'd with
massive 89 HP!!! Then I added the Supercharger and Intercooler... Doubled my
HP overnight.

My '99 is a very similar project... Clutch, Flywheel, Pressure Plate, Turbo
Duals, High Flow Cat, Roll Bar, Injectors (soon) and a Wolf ECU. Where's the
Beef??? Well when the Turbo goes on all the hard work pays off, I am getting
the itch for some serious boost. If I don't see some boost soon I'm gonna
yank the head and port it (actually more like just clean it up a bit).

Mark


> I'd suggest you search the archives...there is a TON of info on this topic
> (alot by Steve Searle with is GREAT) and really answered alot of my
> questions. The kit is not horrible, it just may end up costing a bit more
> in the long run and you won't get as much raw power as easily as the FM
> kits. BUT, for a $1300 start I could not pass it up...add to that a $50
> used BEGI AFPR and J&S and you have a decent kit for about $1200 less than a
> BEGI stage one. The tinker factor will be higher if you want to upgrade,
> and you may have to use your inginuity as the upgrade path is not as laid
> out but I would rather take a small initial hit and put money into it a bit
> at a time that pound my cc with the $4600 FM kit...If I had the money I
> would...but not now.
>
> Nate soon w/Greddy

This read-only message was archived from a public mail list.
Mail From: (email redacted)


Lots of ranting and raving going on here but being a Greddy owner I will lay
down the facts.
I have had only one real problem with the kit and that was easily fixed. That
was the manifold vs turbo expansion problem that most Greddy owners are
familiar with. I don't know if Greddy has addressed this problem yet but if
you are aware of it before the install it is really a nothing job to address
it.
Beyond that, I ran this kit in its stock form for several months without any
problems. I later turned the boost up from the stock 5.5psi to 7psi and
continued to run it with zero problems. The car idled perfectly. You would
never know that a turbo had been added unless you drove it or looked under
the hood.
Yes, its true. It is easier just to buy an FMII kit, throw it in and drive at
200 hp plus but I actually enjoyed having the choice of what parts to use
such as intercooler, blow off valve and so on. Also, when a intercooler
system is customized like mine it can eliminated connectors. The only
connections on my intercooler system are the ones that connect the
intercooler to the turbo and the throttle body.
By the way, I didn't think Greddy made a kit for a 1.8L?

Emmett Burke
92 Greddy Turbo
Intercooled w/LINK ECU @16psi

This read-only message was archived from a public mail list.
Mail From: Kurt Summers <(email redacted)>


Horsepower is not compounded with things like an ECU. The ECU will give
you a _little_ power due to its customization, but the main thing it does
is *allow* you to run the mods that take you beyond a given p.s.i.

A better way to guess what kind of power the sebring will make is divide
it's quoted boost by 14.7, and multiply that figure by the *wheel* HP of
the stock setup. That is what a good, well-tuned, efficient, INTERCOOLED
system will get you. If you don't install an intercooler, subtract some
power. Since the roots blower is not hugely efficient, subtract some more
power. If you don't have a programmable ECU and your fueling is not
perfect, subtract some more.

Remember, more power cannot be pulled out of nowhere (Oscar Jackson's
pocket maybe?). Either some aspect of combustion must become more
efficient, or you must move more air/fuel through the motor to make that
power.

Kurt








At 06:26 AM 1/19/00 -0800, you wrote:
>
>I too have been pondering the super vs. turbo issue.
>I'm leaning towards a Sebring sytem.
>
>--- (email redacted) wrote:
>> Here is what I would do if I wanted simple.
>> I would buy the following components... this is the
>> cleanest method of
>> forced induction possible in my opinion.
>> FM-ECU and Larger Injectors.
>> Aerodyne Turbo and manifold.
>> BEGI racer Intercooler and tubes.
>> Dealer Alt/BEGI downpipe and high flow cat.
>> Dealer Alt turbo dual exhaust.
>> ACT Clutch Flywheel and pressure plate.
>> The only reason not to go with an FM-II/III is the
>> fact that you have to do a little bit more initial
>> work.
>
>One of the characteristics I'm looking for is ease of
>installation and long term maintenance. I've always
>heard the the FM systems require more setup, tinkering
>and maintenance in the long run.
>
>> You end up with the best system available,
>
>That sounds like an opinion, not a fact.
>
>> If you want a 4 hour install remember you will get
>> an equal return for your time... spend 15-20
>> hours installing a proper system
>> and enjoying the rewards of it...
>
>Installation time and quality of the system are not
>related. For example, if I took two hours to install
>an FM system, I bet it would suck.
>
>> The Sebring Supercharger is not that much of a power
>> boost... as a matter of fact a good normally
>> aspirated engine can beat it, as well as my stock
>> mazda 323 GTX.
>
>My research so far shows the following: on the Moss
>Motors web page they show a dyno chart from a 1.8 with
>a Sebring and their boost upgrade kit on it.
>Otherwise stock. There was an increase of 60% more
>horsepower. On my '99 1.8 that should be 224 hp (140
>hp * 1.6). Several people have also added an
>intercooler to the system, getting rid of the risk of
>detonation and giving another 15 - 20 hp. Now we're
>looking at 239 - 244 hp, all from a system that is
>cheaper and easier to maintain. The FMII system
>promises around 250 hp. Right? I don't see a big
>difference here.
>
>> Finally you are more likely to get detonation with
>> the sebring kit than you are with the FM-II.
>
>Not with an intercooler added. And if I wanted even
>more horsepower down the road I could always add an FM
>ECU to tune the fuel curve more.
>
>
>=====
>Michael Opalak
>Atlanta, GA - USA
>My car goes Zoom Zoom.
>'99PEP 215/40-16A520 H&R Blstn FMSwy Voodoo! HDHC MCA PMC TGP+8 RA+3 DG+4
TS+!
>Cogito Ergo Zoom!
>Lighter is Better!
>If it doesn't hurt anyone else, it shouldn't be illegal. You can't pass
laws to protect people from their own stupidity.
>__________________________________________________
>Do You Yahoo!?
>Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger.
>im.yahoo.com
>
Kurt Summers '91 Silver with hi-comp 1929cc motor
NOT ALL HORSEPOWER IS CREATED EQUAL... STAY TUNED
miataclubs.com/1929cc

__________________________________________
NetZero - Defenders of the Free World
Get your FREE Internet Access and Email at
netzero.net/download/index.html

This read-only message was archived from a public mail list.
Mail From: Michael Opalak <(email redacted)>


I too have been pondering the super vs. turbo issue.
I'm leaning towards a Sebring sytem.

--- (email redacted) wrote:
> Here is what I would do if I wanted simple.
> I would buy the following components... this is the
> cleanest method of
> forced induction possible in my opinion.
> FM-ECU and Larger Injectors.
> Aerodyne Turbo and manifold.
> BEGI racer Intercooler and tubes.
> Dealer Alt/BEGI downpipe and high flow cat.
> Dealer Alt turbo dual exhaust.
> ACT Clutch Flywheel and pressure plate.
> The only reason not to go with an FM-II/III is the
> fact that you have to do a little bit more initial
> work.

One of the characteristics I'm looking for is ease of
installation and long term maintenance. I've always
heard the the FM systems require more setup, tinkering
and maintenance in the long run.

> You end up with the best system available,

That sounds like an opinion, not a fact.

> If you want a 4 hour install remember you will get
> an equal return for your time... spend 15-20
> hours installing a proper system
> and enjoying the rewards of it...

Installation time and quality of the system are not
related. For example, if I took two hours to install
an FM system, I bet it would suck.

> The Sebring Supercharger is not that much of a power
> boost... as a matter of fact a good normally
> aspirated engine can beat it, as well as my stock
> mazda 323 GTX.

My research so far shows the following: on the Moss
Motors web page they show a dyno chart from a 1.8 with
a Sebring and their boost upgrade kit on it.
Otherwise stock. There was an increase of 60% more
horsepower. On my '99 1.8 that should be 224 hp (140
hp * 1.6). Several people have also added an
intercooler to the system, getting rid of the risk of
detonation and giving another 15 - 20 hp. Now we're
looking at 239 - 244 hp, all from a system that is
cheaper and easier to maintain. The FMII system
promises around 250 hp. Right? I don't see a big
difference here.

> Finally you are more likely to get detonation with
> the sebring kit than you are with the FM-II.

Not with an intercooler added. And if I wanted even
more horsepower down the road I could always add an FM
ECU to tune the fuel curve more.


=====
Michael Opalak
Atlanta, GA - USA
My car goes Zoom Zoom.
'99PEP 215/40-16A520 H&R Blstn FMSwy Voodoo! HDHC MCA PMC TGP+8 RA+3 DG+4 TS+!
Cogito Ergo Zoom!
Lighter is Better!
If it doesn't hurt anyone else, it shouldn't be illegal. You can't pass laws to protect people from their own stupidity.
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger.
im.yahoo.com

This read-only message was archived from a public mail list.
Mail From: Larry Alster <(email redacted)>


Michael, your numbers are wrong. Go to Bill C's site and look at the
dyno charts of the Sebrings. No way you are ever going to get that kind
of HP from a Sebring. That said you want a less tinkering system and
less HP than a turbo go for a Sebring. We will probably eventually put
one on the wife's everyday car.

Michael Opalak wrote:
>
> I too have been pondering the super vs. turbo issue.
> I'm leaning towards a Sebring sytem.
>
> --- (email redacted) wrote:
> > Here is what I would do if I wanted simple.
> > I would buy the following components... this is the
> > cleanest method of
> > forced induction possible in my opinion.
> > FM-ECU and Larger Injectors.
> > Aerodyne Turbo and manifold.
> > BEGI racer Intercooler and tubes.
> > Dealer Alt/BEGI downpipe and high flow cat.
> > Dealer Alt turbo dual exhaust.
> > ACT Clutch Flywheel and pressure plate.
> > The only reason not to go with an FM-II/III is the
> > fact that you have to do a little bit more initial
> > work.
>
> One of the characteristics I'm looking for is ease of
> installation and long term maintenance. I've always
> heard the the FM systems require more setup, tinkering
> and maintenance in the long run.
>
> > You end up with the best system available,
>
> That sounds like an opinion, not a fact.
>
> > If you want a 4 hour install remember you will get
> > an equal return for your time... spend 15-20
> > hours installing a proper system
> > and enjoying the rewards of it...
>
> Installation time and quality of the system are not
> related. For example, if I took two hours to install
> an FM system, I bet it would suck.
>
> > The Sebring Supercharger is not that much of a power
> > boost... as a matter of fact a good normally
> > aspirated engine can beat it, as well as my stock
> > mazda 323 GTX.
>
> My research so far shows the following: on the Moss
> Motors web page they show a dyno chart from a 1.8 with
> a Sebring and their boost upgrade kit on it.
> Otherwise stock. There was an increase of 60% more
> horsepower. On my '99 1.8 that should be 224 hp (140
> hp * 1.6). Several people have also added an
> intercooler to the system, getting rid of the risk of
> detonation and giving another 15 - 20 hp. Now we're
> looking at 239 - 244 hp, all from a system that is
> cheaper and easier to maintain. The FMII system
> promises around 250 hp. Right? I don't see a big
> difference here.
>
> > Finally you are more likely to get detonation with
> > the sebring kit than you are with the FM-II.
>
> Not with an intercooler added. And if I wanted even
> more horsepower down the road I could always add an FM
> ECU to tune the fuel curve more.
>
> =====
> Michael Opalak
> Atlanta, GA - USA
> My car goes Zoom Zoom.
> '99PEP 215/40-16A520 H&R Blstn FMSwy Voodoo! HDHC MCA PMC TGP+8 RA+3 DG+4 TS+!
> Cogito Ergo Zoom!
> Lighter is Better!
> If it doesn't hurt anyone else, it shouldn't be illegal. You can't pass laws to protect people from their own stupidity.
> __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger.
> im.yahoo.com

--
Larry Alster

1991 "White Knight" CSP #99
1992 "Silver Bullet" EM #17 BEGI Stage IV+
1992 "Honey Bee"
__________________________________________
NetZero - Defenders of the Free World
Get your FREE Internet Access and Email at
netzero.net/download/index.html

This read-only message was archived from a public mail list.
Mail From: Michael Opalak <(email redacted)>


--- Larry Alster <(email redacted)> wrote:
> Michael, your numbers are wrong. Go to Bill C's
> site and look at the dyno charts of the Sebrings.
> No way you are ever going to get that kind
> of HP from a Sebring.

I was mistaken in my previous email. The dyno chart I
saw for the Sebring on a 1.8 with the boost upgrade
kit was from a piece of Moss literature I got at
Dallas, I think. It still stated a 60% hp increase.

Has anyone contacted Moss about their blatant lie?
How can they get away with this? How did they fake
their dyno chart anyway?


=====
Michael Opalak
Atlanta, GA - USA
My car goes Zoom Zoom.
'99PEP 215/40-16A520 H&R Blstn FMSwy Voodoo! HDHC MCA PMC TGP+8 RA+3 DG+4 TS+!
Cogito Ergo Zoom!
Lighter is Better!
If it doesn't hurt anyone else, it shouldn't be illegal. You can't pass laws to protect people from their own stupidity.
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger.
im.yahoo.com

This read-only message was archived from a public mail list.
Mail From: "Mel Hoagland" <(email redacted)>


Michael, do more research. The Sebring does not get you 224 hp (except
according to those that sell them). Moss Motors sells these things, they
have a vested interest and a huge stake in getting the sales volumes up. As
far as I know, their claims (like the claims made for the Jackson Racing
CAI) have never been corroborated independently. Also - superchargers are
inherently less efficient than turbos, resulting in higher temperatures and
lower efficiency of the intercooler.

Mel
------------------------------------------------------------
Mel Hoagland ((email redacted))
"Wheezy" black 96 FMII vrrooommmm


-----Original Message-----
From: Michael Opalak <(email redacted)>
To: (email redacted) <(email redacted)>;
(email redacted) <(email redacted)>
Cc: (email redacted) <(email redacted)>
Date: Wednesday, January 19, 2000 9:50 AM
Subject: Re: Which Supercharger for my '92 mx-5 1.6L


>
>I too have been pondering the super vs. turbo issue.
>I'm leaning towards a Sebring sytem.
>
>--- (email redacted) wrote:
>> Here is what I would do if I wanted simple.
>> I would buy the following components... this is the
>> cleanest method of
>> forced induction possible in my opinion.
>> FM-ECU and Larger Injectors.
>> Aerodyne Turbo and manifold.
>> BEGI racer Intercooler and tubes.
>> Dealer Alt/BEGI downpipe and high flow cat.
>> Dealer Alt turbo dual exhaust.
>> ACT Clutch Flywheel and pressure plate.
>> The only reason not to go with an FM-II/III is the
>> fact that you have to do a little bit more initial
>> work.
>
>One of the characteristics I'm looking for is ease of
>installation and long term maintenance. I've always
>heard the the FM systems require more setup, tinkering
>and maintenance in the long run.
>
>> You end up with the best system available,
>
>That sounds like an opinion, not a fact.
>
>> If you want a 4 hour install remember you will get
>> an equal return for your time... spend 15-20
>> hours installing a proper system
>> and enjoying the rewards of it...
>
>Installation time and quality of the system are not
>related. For example, if I took two hours to install
>an FM system, I bet it would suck.
>
>> The Sebring Supercharger is not that much of a power
>> boost... as a matter of fact a good normally
>> aspirated engine can beat it, as well as my stock
>> mazda 323 GTX.
>
>My research so far shows the following: on the Moss
>Motors web page they show a dyno chart from a 1.8 with
>a Sebring and their boost upgrade kit on it.
>Otherwise stock. There was an increase of 60% more
>horsepower. On my '99 1.8 that should be 224 hp (140
>hp * 1.6). Several people have also added an
>intercooler to the system, getting rid of the risk of
>detonation and giving another 15 - 20 hp. Now we're
>looking at 239 - 244 hp, all from a system that is
>cheaper and easier to maintain. The FMII system
>promises around 250 hp. Right? I don't see a big
>difference here.
>
>> Finally you are more likely to get detonation with
>> the sebring kit than you are with the FM-II.
>
>Not with an intercooler added. And if I wanted even
>more horsepower down the road I could always add an FM
>ECU to tune the fuel curve more.
>
>
>=====
>Michael Opalak
>Atlanta, GA - USA
>My car goes Zoom Zoom.
>'99PEP 215/40-16A520 H&R Blstn FMSwy Voodoo! HDHC MCA PMC TGP+8 RA+3 DG+4
TS+!
>Cogito Ergo Zoom!
>Lighter is Better!
>If it doesn't hurt anyone else, it shouldn't be illegal. You can't pass
laws to protect people from their own stupidity.
>__________________________________________________
>Do You Yahoo!?
>Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger.
>im.yahoo.com
>

This read-only message was archived from a public mail list.
Mail From: Frank Mowry <(email redacted)>




How many out there started with:
1) a certain budget
2) a desired power level

Then when you reached that power level and budget
1) increased your budget
2) increased your desired power level

and now
1) are contemplating future mods for more power
2) are determining your new, adjusted budget

You have to decide if you're the norm (bigger, faster, more expensive) and are
picking the proper starting point or system to reach your goal and easily
expand or are one of the select few that will leave well enough alone and be
satisfied with the first system you choose and use. Once you do that, be
happy with your choice and enjoy your ride.

Frank

This read-only message was archived from a public mail list.
Mail From: (email redacted)


>
> I too have been pondering the super vs. turbo issue.
> I'm leaning towards a Sebring sytem.
>
>
> One of the characteristics I'm looking for is ease of
> installation and long term maintenance. I've always
> heard the the FM systems require more setup, tinkering
> and maintenance in the long run.

I had what essentially worked out to be an FM-II with a supercharger, in a
short period of time I could have switched to a turbo... believe me, it was
not high maintenance. It did require more initial setup, but it was also far
more powerful than the Sebring. I have raced sebrings (6 PSI) and I can
honestly say that they were nearly 2 seconds slower in the 1/4 mile.

>
> > You end up with the best system available,
>
> That sounds like an opinion, not a fact.

You want facts.

Any properly designed F/I system will have the following issues addressed.

Intercooling
Fuel Management
Detonation sensing and avoidance
upgrade path
system integration

look at what the sebring does to address these issues... then look at the
other systems available. You will come to your own conclusion that there are
right ways and wrong ways of doing this.

I also suggest that you consider power and torque as a yardstick of how well
detonation is controlled. You cannot make goobs of power if your engine is
going to grenade. Look at the Dyno graphs on the CDMDD site... I'm sure
someone will provide the URL... the difference is obvious. The power and
torque curves of the sebring look like the EKG of someone having a siezure.

>
> > If you want a 4 hour install remember you will get
> > an equal return for your time... spend 15-20
> > hours installing a proper system
> > and enjoying the rewards of it...
>
> Installation time and quality of the system are not
> related. For example, if I took two hours to install
> an FM system, I bet it would suck.

Yes they are... you can only change so much in a given period of time... I
have installed a system very similar to the FM-II, all I can say is that it
is worth it.

>
> > The Sebring Supercharger is not that much of a power
> > boost... as a matter of fact a good normally
> > aspirated engine can beat it, as well as my stock
> > mazda 323 GTX.
>
> My research so far shows the following: on the Moss
> Motors web page they show a dyno chart from a 1.8 with
> a Sebring and their boost upgrade kit on it.
> Otherwise stock. There was an increase of 60% more
> horsepower. On my '99 1.8 that should be 224 hp (140
> hp * 1.6). Several people have also added an
> intercooler to the system, getting rid of the risk of
> detonation and giving another 15 - 20 hp. Now we're
> looking at 239 - 244 hp, all from a system that is
> cheaper and easier to maintain. The FMII system
> promises around 250 hp. Right? I don't see a big
> difference here.
>

My racing showed that a 132 HP 323 kicked the crap out of a "200" HP
Sebring. He did not let me win... He did not even have a chance! You should
go back and do your research again, because you are relying on numbers that
don't even come close to fantasy.

> > Finally you are more likely to get detonation with
> > the sebring kit than you are with the FM-II.
>
> Not with an intercooler added. And if I wanted even
> more horsepower down the road I could always add an FM
> ECU to tune the fuel curve more.

If you change the system then obviously you are no longer talking about a
stock sebring kit.

You obviously have no clue as to what you are talking about... ask someone
who has added an FM-ECU and Intercooler to the Sebring if it was worth the
trouble... (Dan R. comes to mind.) He has one of the more powerful Sebring
kits on the road... I bet if he had to start over he would not choose the
Sebring. ( I could be wrong...)

Finally, don't take this wrong... there are supercharger kits that will make
200 HP (or there abouts) but they can only be bought used since they are not
sold in kit form anymore. The Autorotor in my car put out an honest 180 HP
at the rear wheels at 10 PSI. This was with an FM-ECU, Intercooler, 550
cc/min injectors, headers, and cat back exhaust... but it was a lot more
efficient than the Sebring when it came to compressing air. The Sebring has
to be over-revved to generate high boost pressures.

Mark

This read-only message was archived from a public mail list.
Mail From: Larry Alster <(email redacted)>


Frank, I totally agree with you. The point is if you are going to be
willing to buy the Greddy or Sebring and are fully informed about the
power and lack of easy upgrading fine. But don't buy these systems if
you want to move up and we all know you get hooked on boost, right? :)

Frank Mowry wrote:
>
> How many out there started with:
> 1) a certain budget
> 2) a desired power level
>
> Then when you reached that power level and budget
> 1) increased your budget
> 2) increased your desired power level
>
> and now
> 1) are contemplating future mods for more power
> 2) are determining your new, adjusted budget
>
> You have to decide if you're the norm (bigger, faster, more expensive) and are
> picking the proper starting point or system to reach your goal and easily
> expand or are one of the select few that will leave well enough alone and be
> satisfied with the first system you choose and use. Once you do that, be
> happy with your choice and enjoy your ride.
>
> Frank

--
Larry Alster

1991 "White Knight" CSP #99
1992 "Silver Bullet" EM #17 BEGI Stage IV+
1992 "Honey Bee"
__________________________________________
NetZero - Defenders of the Free World
Get your FREE Internet Access and Email at
netzero.net/download/index.html

This read-only message was archived from a public mail list.
Mail From: Frank Mowry <(email redacted)>


Larry,
Let's just say the budget has increased a wee bit over the last couple of years.
But so has the fun factor. Good thing the woman (mine) doesn't monitor this list!

Frank

Larry Alster wrote:

> Frank, I totally agree with you. The point is if you are going to be
> willing to buy the Greddy or Sebring and are fully informed about the
> power and lack of easy upgrading fine. But don't buy these systems if
> you want to move up and we all know you get hooked on boost, right? :)
>
> Frank Mowry wrote:
> >
> > How many out there started with:
> > 1) a certain budget
> > 2) a desired power level
> >
> > Then when you reached that power level and budget
> > 1) increased your budget
> > 2) increased your desired power level
> >
> > and now
> > 1) are contemplating future mods for more power
> > 2) are determining your new, adjusted budget
> >
> > You have to decide if you're the norm (bigger, faster, more expensive) and are
> > picking the proper starting point or system to reach your goal and easily
> > expand or are one of the select few that will leave well enough alone and be
> > satisfied with the first system you choose and use. Once you do that, be
> > happy with your choice and enjoy your ride.
> >
> > Frank
>
> --
> Larry Alster
>
> 1991 "White Knight" CSP #99
> 1992 "Silver Bullet" EM #17 BEGI Stage IV+
> 1992 "Honey Bee"
> __________________________________________
> NetZero - Defenders of the Free World
> Get your FREE Internet Access and Email at
> netzero.net/download/index.html