Miatapower List Archive

This read-only message was archived from a public mail list.
Mail From: Timothy Roller <(email redacted)>

Since the subject of wheels got popped up, I've got a question for
everyone. I have a set of 17X7 Hart rims that have gotten so bent up on
some Texas roads that they are basically undrivable. So now I need to go
look for some new ones. What I'm wondering is whether a 7.5" width will
fit in on a Miata and still let me turn the wheel. I was thinking
16X7.5, if I could do it.

As far as reshaping rims goes, the price of just reforming mine to the
original shape was more than a light set of TSRs, so I wouldn't want to
imagine how much it would be for a widening.

Cheers,
TiM Roller
'93 BEGI III

(email redacted) wrote:
>
> Hi Larry,
>
> Thanks for the response - I've asked about this causally at work and know
> it's commonly done for steel wheels for the muscle car crowd, but
> questionable for alloys, hence the question of whether it's been done
> before, and if so, would it keep the very light characteristics.
>
> Here's my reasoning.
>
> 1) Light weight is extremely important for the Miata's unsprung weight
>
> 2) I have a set of Miata '93 alloys ( 14 x 5.5 ) - they will not
> accommodate 205/55/14's.
>
> 3) I like the look of 7 inch wide wheels on the Miata.
>
> 4) Rumor has it that 14 x 7 wheels will give near 15 inch wheel handling,
> but be a lot more comfortable on the back.
>
> 5) I have ordered a set of lightweight TE37 15x7 wheels, but that was over
> a month ago and have not received delivery. So I am reconsidering,
> especially do to the price. By saving a few dollars here - it makes side
> draft throttle bodies or Nitrous more obtainable ...
>
> 6) QED
>
> I know that the 14x6 wheels would accommodate 205/55's, but thought I'd
> explore this first - I like the looks of the early year alloys and this
> would be a bit unique ...
>
> Larry Alster <(email redacted)> on 01/17/99 08:10:34 AM
>
> Please respond to (email redacted)
>
> To: Dan W Thorpe/WLGORE
> cc: Miatapower Mailing List <(email redacted)>
> Subject: Re: A question of widening wheels
>
> (email redacted) wrote:
>
> > Is it possible to widen the Miata alloys - or is that only a option on
> > steel rims?
>
> I would think anything is possible if you want to pay the price. I guess
> my question would be why??? It will probably cost more than buying new
> after market wheels. Look in the back of the SCCA magazine, Turbo or
> SCC. There are places that list wheel repair. Give them a call and get
> the truth.
>
> --
>
> Larry and The White Knight
>
> M Club Member #70
> '91 Crystal White
> S.C. Tags "RUJELUS"
> Team-Base-Model
> Team-Stripes
> Team-Dealer-Alternative
> Team-Jackson-Racing
> Team-Hard-Dog
> Team-Crazy-Red-Italian
> Team-Too-Much-More-To-Mention

This read-only message was archived from a public mail list.
Mail From: Vic Harder <(email redacted)>

To add a twist to this topic, i think Mel might be onto something here.
With some of the info that has been posted here, i compared wheel/tire
weight combinations between Sp8000 in 14,15,16" sizes, and found that
for a given width, there is NOT much of a difference in the total
weight.

Problem is, who puts on a 16" wheel and uses 185 wide tires?? :-)

vic

Mel Hoagland wrote:
>
> I would like to hear the discussion rehashed. Larger wheels means smaller
> tires - perhaps not an ounce-to-ounce trade off, but how much farther does
> the advantage of lower profile, stiffer tires swing the balance? It seems to
> me that formula cars have about as little rubber as they can get on the
> wheel, wouldn't those cars benefit from smaller wheels/larger tires if there
> was an across-the-board advantage to less unsprung weight, (e.g. the extra
> weight was NOT balanced out in favor of stiffer rubber)? I know comparing
> Miatas to formula racers is a bit of an oranges/apples comparison, but
> surely there are enough parallels here. Am I missing a lot here? Or a
> little?
>
> Mel
> ------------------------------------------------------------
> Mel Hoagland ((email redacted))
> 96 black FMII turbo coming up
> -----Original Message-----
> From: (email redacted) <(email redacted)>
> To: (email redacted) <(email redacted)>
> Cc: Miatapower Mailing List <(email redacted)>
> Date: Tuesday, January 19, 1999 2:19 AM
> Subject: Re: Wheel widths Re: A question of widening wheels
>
> >Mel Hoagland says:
> >>
> >>
> >> I have a set of 17x7.5 rims on my Miata. I use 205 40R17 tires. The
> offset
> >
> >> to say the least. My cornering speeds increased dramatically, as these
> tires
> >> exhibit an absolute minimum of flex. I recommend this setup.
> >
> >I guess there is really no need to rehash the discussion about unsprung
> >weight, and lousy transitional speeds with even the most expensive of 17"
> >rims compared to a 15"-- or even a 16".
> >
> >--
> >__
> >Miq Millman (email redacted)
> >Tualatin, OR
> >

This read-only message was archived from a public mail list.
Mail From: "Mel Hoagland" <(email redacted)>

I have a set of 17x7.5 rims on my Miata. I use 205 40R17 tires. The offset
of the rims is 35mm, 10mm less than stock (I believe stock is 45mm). I have
never had problems with steering EXCEPT: on a full lock turn the tire will
rub the wheel well liner IF I hit a sizable rock or pothole. During some
very hard autocrossing I have never had a problem. The results are dramatic,
to say the least. My cornering speeds increased dramatically, as these tires
exhibit an absolute minimum of flex. I recommend this setup.
------------------------------------------------------------
Mel Hoagland ((email redacted))
96 FMII turbo once the snow melts...
-----Original Message-----
From: Timothy Roller <(email redacted)>
To: Miatapower Mailing List <(email redacted)>
Date: Sunday, January 17, 1999 11:31 PM
Subject: Wheel widths Re: A question of widening wheels


>
>Since the subject of wheels got popped up, I've got a question for
>everyone. I have a set of 17X7 Hart rims that have gotten so bent up on
>some Texas roads that they are basically undrivable. So now I need to go
>look for some new ones. What I'm wondering is whether a 7.5" width will
>fit in on a Miata and still let me turn the wheel. I was thinking
>16X7.5, if I could do it.
>
>As far as reshaping rims goes, the price of just reforming mine to the
>original shape was more than a light set of TSRs, so I wouldn't want to
>imagine how much it would be for a widening.
>
>Cheers,
> TiM Roller
>'93 BEGI III
>
>(email redacted) wrote:
>>
>> Hi Larry,
>>
>> Thanks for the response - I've asked about this causally at work and know
>> it's commonly done for steel wheels for the muscle car crowd, but
>> questionable for alloys, hence the question of whether it's been done
>> before, and if so, would it keep the very light characteristics.
>>
>> Here's my reasoning.
>>
>> 1) Light weight is extremely important for the Miata's unsprung weight
>>
>> 2) I have a set of Miata '93 alloys ( 14 x 5.5 ) - they will not
>> accommodate 205/55/14's.
>>
>> 3) I like the look of 7 inch wide wheels on the Miata.
>>
>> 4) Rumor has it that 14 x 7 wheels will give near 15 inch wheel
handling,
>> but be a lot more comfortable on the back.
>>
>> 5) I have ordered a set of lightweight TE37 15x7 wheels, but that was
over
>> a month ago and have not received delivery. So I am reconsidering,
>> especially do to the price. By saving a few dollars here - it makes side
>> draft throttle bodies or Nitrous more obtainable ...
>>
>> 6) QED
>>
>> I know that the 14x6 wheels would accommodate 205/55's, but thought I'd
>> explore this first - I like the looks of the early year alloys and this
>> would be a bit unique ...
>>
>> Larry Alster <(email redacted)> on 01/17/99 08:10:34 AM
>>
>> Please respond to (email redacted)
>>
>> To: Dan W Thorpe/WLGORE
>> cc: Miatapower Mailing List <(email redacted)>
>> Subject: Re: A question of widening wheels
>>
>> (email redacted) wrote:
>>
>> > Is it possible to widen the Miata alloys - or is that only a option on
>> > steel rims?
>>
>> I would think anything is possible if you want to pay the price. I guess
>> my question would be why??? It will probably cost more than buying new
>> after market wheels. Look in the back of the SCCA magazine, Turbo or
>> SCC. There are places that list wheel repair. Give them a call and get
>> the truth.
>>
>> --
>>
>> Larry and The White Knight
>>
>> M Club Member #70
>> '91 Crystal White
>> S.C. Tags "RUJELUS"
>> Team-Base-Model
>> Team-Stripes
>> Team-Dealer-Alternative
>> Team-Jackson-Racing
>> Team-Hard-Dog
>> Team-Crazy-Red-Italian
>> Team-Too-Much-More-To-Mention

This read-only message was archived from a public mail list.
Mail From: "Mel Hoagland" <(email redacted)>

I would like to hear the discussion rehashed. Larger wheels means smaller
tires - perhaps not an ounce-to-ounce trade off, but how much farther does
the advantage of lower profile, stiffer tires swing the balance? It seems to
me that formula cars have about as little rubber as they can get on the
wheel, wouldn't those cars benefit from smaller wheels/larger tires if there
was an across-the-board advantage to less unsprung weight, (e.g. the extra
weight was NOT balanced out in favor of stiffer rubber)? I know comparing
Miatas to formula racers is a bit of an oranges/apples comparison, but
surely there are enough parallels here. Am I missing a lot here? Or a
little?

Mel
------------------------------------------------------------
Mel Hoagland ((email redacted))
96 black FMII turbo coming up
-----Original Message-----
From: (email redacted) <(email redacted)>
To: (email redacted) <(email redacted)>
Cc: Miatapower Mailing List <(email redacted)>
Date: Tuesday, January 19, 1999 2:19 AM
Subject: Re: Wheel widths Re: A question of widening wheels


>Mel Hoagland says:
>>
>>
>> I have a set of 17x7.5 rims on my Miata. I use 205 40R17 tires. The
offset
>
>> to say the least. My cornering speeds increased dramatically, as these
tires
>> exhibit an absolute minimum of flex. I recommend this setup.
>
>I guess there is really no need to rehash the discussion about unsprung
>weight, and lousy transitional speeds with even the most expensive of 17"
>rims compared to a 15"-- or even a 16".
>
>--
>__
>Miq Millman (email redacted)
>Tualatin, OR
>

This read-only message was archived from a public mail list.
Mail From: (email redacted)

Mel Hoagland says:
>
>
> I have a set of 17x7.5 rims on my Miata. I use 205 40R17 tires. The offset

> to say the least. My cornering speeds increased dramatically, as these tires
> exhibit an absolute minimum of flex. I recommend this setup.

I guess there is really no need to rehash the discussion about unsprung
weight, and lousy transitional speeds with even the most expensive of 17"
rims compared to a 15"-- or even a 16".

--
__
Miq Millman (email redacted)
Tualatin, OR

This read-only message was archived from a public mail list.
Mail From: Beau Randall <(email redacted)>


Really? I dunno what my Yoko AVS 205/55/14's weigh, but they probably
aren't more than a pound or so over the stockers (which weigh about 17
lbs., I believe). Most 205/16/45 tires seem to weigh around the 21-22
lb. range. So you're adding maybe 3-4 lbs. per tire for going up two
wheel sizes. And most lightweight 16" wheels weigh in at around 15 lbs.,
(except for the Volks and perhaps a couple others). That's at least 7
lbs/wheel for choosing to go from the stock 94-97 alloys to a lightweight
16" wheel using the same width tire, about a 20% weight increase. I
consider that fairly significant. - Beau

On Mon, 18 Jan 1999, Vic Harder wrote:

>
> To add a twist to this topic, i think Mel might be onto something here.
> With some of the info that has been posted here, i compared wheel/tire
> weight combinations between Sp8000 in 14,15,16" sizes, and found that
> for a given width, there is NOT much of a difference in the total
> weight.
>
> Problem is, who puts on a 16" wheel and uses 185 wide tires?? :-)
>
> vic
>
> Mel Hoagland wrote:
> >
> > I would like to hear the discussion rehashed. Larger wheels means smaller
> > tires - perhaps not an ounce-to-ounce trade off, but how much farther does
> > the advantage of lower profile, stiffer tires swing the balance? It seems to
> > me that formula cars have about as little rubber as they can get on the
> > wheel, wouldn't those cars benefit from smaller wheels/larger tires if there
> > was an across-the-board advantage to less unsprung weight, (e.g. the extra
> > weight was NOT balanced out in favor of stiffer rubber)? I know comparing
> > Miatas to formula racers is a bit of an oranges/apples comparison, but
> > surely there are enough parallels here. Am I missing a lot here? Or a
> > little?
> >
> > Mel
> > ------------------------------------------------------------
> > Mel Hoagland ((email redacted))
> > 96 black FMII turbo coming up
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: (email redacted) <(email redacted)>
> > To: (email redacted) <(email redacted)>
> > Cc: Miatapower Mailing List <(email redacted)>
> > Date: Tuesday, January 19, 1999 2:19 AM
> > Subject: Re: Wheel widths Re: A question of widening wheels
> >
> > >Mel Hoagland says:
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> I have a set of 17x7.5 rims on my Miata. I use 205 40R17 tires. The
> > offset
> > >
> > >> to say the least. My cornering speeds increased dramatically, as these
> > tires
> > >> exhibit an absolute minimum of flex. I recommend this setup.
> > >
> > >I guess there is really no need to rehash the discussion about unsprung
> > >weight, and lousy transitional speeds with even the most expensive of 17"
> > >rims compared to a 15"-- or even a 16".
> > >
> > >--
> > >__
> > >Miq Millman (email redacted)
> > >Tualatin, OR
> > >
>

This read-only message was archived from a public mail list.
Mail From: "Shiv S. Pathak" <(email redacted)>

Like all cars, the Miata's wheel choice was a compromise between performance, cost,
fuel economy, and ride quality (not necessarily in that order). All things equal,
I feel a *lightweight* 15" or 16" wheel, wrapped in reasonably wider, lower profile
tires will almost always improve grip, steering response and overall performance
(at the expense of ride quality, noise, mpg, etc,).

I would be surprised if anyone this side of a Gerhard Berger could really notice
and complain about an extra, say, 3-5 pounds of unsprung rotational weight, even if
most of the mass is far away from the center. A heavy 25lb TSW? Well, that's
another story and definately not advisable if one has performance in mind.


Dan Scolnick wrote:
>
> The issue can be rendered down to which has more effect on the miata.
> Lower unsprung weight or a slighter wider contact patch. For me the car
> needs the designed in low unsprung weight far more than it can make use of
> the wider contact patch (like a behemoth like a camaro or a lincoln Mark8
> can).
>
> While your comparison with F1 cars *could* be used *except* for the fact
> that their wheels are extrememly light AND way more expensive than most
> miata owners are willing to spend.
>
> Of course if the issue is cosmetic then by all means, go for the bigger
> wheels.
> *flame suit on*
>
> /^\dans
>
> At 09:42 PM 1/18/99 -0000, Mel Hoagland wrote:
> >
> >I would like to hear the discussion rehashed. Larger wheels means smaller
> >tires - perhaps not an ounce-to-ounce trade off, but how much farther does
> >the advantage of lower profile, stiffer tires swing the balance? It seems to
> >me that formula cars have about as little rubber as they can get on the
> >wheel, wouldn't those cars benefit from smaller wheels/larger tires if there
> >was an across-the-board advantage to less unsprung weight, (e.g. the extra
> >weight was NOT balanced out in favor of stiffer rubber)? I know comparing
> >Miatas to formula racers is a bit of an oranges/apples comparison, but
> >surely there are enough parallels here. Am I missing a lot here? Or a
> >little?
> >
> >Mel
> >------------------------------------------------------------
> >Mel Hoagland ((email redacted))
> >96 black FMII turbo coming up
> >-----Original Message-----
> >From: (email redacted) <(email redacted)>
> >To: (email redacted) <(email redacted)>
> >Cc: Miatapower Mailing List <(email redacted)>
> >Date: Tuesday, January 19, 1999 2:19 AM
> >Subject: Re: Wheel widths Re: A question of widening wheels
> >
> >
> >>Mel Hoagland says:
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> I have a set of 17x7.5 rims on my Miata. I use 205 40R17 tires. The
> >offset
> >>
> >>> to say the least. My cornering speeds increased dramatically, as these
> >tires
> >>> exhibit an absolute minimum of flex. I recommend this setup.
> >>
> >>I guess there is really no need to rehash the discussion about unsprung
> >>weight, and lousy transitional speeds with even the most expensive of 17"
> >>rims compared to a 15"-- or even a 16".
> >>
> >>--
> >>__
> >>Miq Millman (email redacted)
> >>Tualatin, OR
> >>
> >
> >
> >

This read-only message was archived from a public mail list.
Mail From: Dan Scolnick <(email redacted)>

Or even the lowly stock 14" wheels that I use and prefer.
/^\dans



At 06:19 PM 1/18/99 -0800, (email redacted) wrote:
>
>Mel Hoagland says:
>>
>>
>> I have a set of 17x7.5 rims on my Miata. I use 205 40R17 tires. The offset
>
>> to say the least. My cornering speeds increased dramatically, as these
tires
>> exhibit an absolute minimum of flex. I recommend this setup.
>
>I guess there is really no need to rehash the discussion about unsprung
>weight, and lousy transitional speeds with even the most expensive of 17"
>rims compared to a 15"-- or even a 16".
>
>--
>__
>Miq Millman (email redacted)
>Tualatin, OR
>
>

This read-only message was archived from a public mail list.
Mail From: Dan Scolnick <(email redacted)>

The issue can be rendered down to which has more effect on the miata.
Lower unsprung weight or a slighter wider contact patch. For me the car
needs the designed in low unsprung weight far more than it can make use of
the wider contact patch (like a behemoth like a camaro or a lincoln Mark8
can).

While your comparison with F1 cars *could* be used *except* for the fact
that their wheels are extrememly light AND way more expensive than most
miata owners are willing to spend.

Of course if the issue is cosmetic then by all means, go for the bigger
wheels.
*flame suit on*

/^\dans



At 09:42 PM 1/18/99 -0000, Mel Hoagland wrote:
>
>I would like to hear the discussion rehashed. Larger wheels means smaller
>tires - perhaps not an ounce-to-ounce trade off, but how much farther does
>the advantage of lower profile, stiffer tires swing the balance? It seems to
>me that formula cars have about as little rubber as they can get on the
>wheel, wouldn't those cars benefit from smaller wheels/larger tires if there
>was an across-the-board advantage to less unsprung weight, (e.g. the extra
>weight was NOT balanced out in favor of stiffer rubber)? I know comparing
>Miatas to formula racers is a bit of an oranges/apples comparison, but
>surely there are enough parallels here. Am I missing a lot here? Or a
>little?
>
>Mel
>------------------------------------------------------------
>Mel Hoagland ((email redacted))
>96 black FMII turbo coming up
>-----Original Message-----
>From: (email redacted) <(email redacted)>
>To: (email redacted) <(email redacted)>
>Cc: Miatapower Mailing List <(email redacted)>
>Date: Tuesday, January 19, 1999 2:19 AM
>Subject: Re: Wheel widths Re: A question of widening wheels
>
>
>>Mel Hoagland says:
>>>
>>>
>>> I have a set of 17x7.5 rims on my Miata. I use 205 40R17 tires. The
>offset
>>
>>> to say the least. My cornering speeds increased dramatically, as these
>tires
>>> exhibit an absolute minimum of flex. I recommend this setup.
>>
>>I guess there is really no need to rehash the discussion about unsprung
>>weight, and lousy transitional speeds with even the most expensive of 17"
>>rims compared to a 15"-- or even a 16".
>>
>>--
>>__
>>Miq Millman (email redacted)
>>Tualatin, OR
>>
>
>
>

This read-only message was archived from a public mail list.
Mail From: "Steven Searle" <(email redacted)>

IIRC, Formula One cars use a relatively small 15" wheel in the back, and I
believe a 60 series race tire. Metal weighs more than rubber and air, so a
bigger wheel tire combo almost always will weigh significantly more.

You're correct that lower profile tire will have a stiffer sidewall (all
else being equal), with commensurate handling improvements (again, all else
being equal). The European "production" car series allow ludicrously large
wheels (20"?), but they also use ludicrously lightweight (read: expensive)
wheels to keep unsprung weight down. Even if you could afford to run these
wheels on the street, the first pothole would probably bend them (something
that doesn't generally occur on a racetrack, the curbs notwithstanding).

Also, unsprung weight will affect a car less on a smooth racetrack than in
the real world. What works well when the going is smooth can feel pretty
tricky when the road gets bumpy. Case in point: Richard Dekker noticed a
distinct improvement in the tossability/controlability of his '90 when he
went back to 14x5.5 alloys from the 15x7s with 205-50 tires he ran
previously.

Of course, California residents can ignore all this, and go straight out and
buy that zoomy 18" wheel/tire combo. Anyone else who want stiffer sidewalls
should get R-compound tires. The ones I used to have would support the car
even with no air in them.

Steven


-----Original Message-----
From: Mel Hoagland <(email redacted)>
To: (email redacted) <(email redacted)>
Cc: Miatapower Mailing List <(email redacted)>
Date: January 18, 1999 10:18 PM
Subject: Re: Wheel widths Re: A question of widening wheels


>
>I would like to hear the discussion rehashed. Larger wheels means smaller
>tires - perhaps not an ounce-to-ounce trade off, but how much farther does
>the advantage of lower profile, stiffer tires swing the balance? It seems
to
>me that formula cars have about as little rubber as they can get on the
>wheel, wouldn't those cars benefit from smaller wheels/larger tires if
there
>was an across-the-board advantage to less unsprung weight, (e.g. the extra
>weight was NOT balanced out in favor of stiffer rubber)? I know comparing
>Miatas to formula racers is a bit of an oranges/apples comparison, but
>surely there are enough parallels here. Am I missing a lot here? Or a
>little?
>
>Mel
>------------------------------------------------------------
>Mel Hoagland ((email redacted))
>96 black FMII turbo coming up
>-----Original Message-----
>From: (email redacted) <(email redacted)>
>To: (email redacted) <(email redacted)>
>Cc: Miatapower Mailing List <(email redacted)>
>Date: Tuesday, January 19, 1999 2:19 AM
>Subject: Re: Wheel widths Re: A question of widening wheels
>
>
>>Mel Hoagland says:
>>>
>>>
>>> I have a set of 17x7.5 rims on my Miata. I use 205 40R17 tires. The
>offset
>>
>>> to say the least. My cornering speeds increased dramatically, as these
>tires
>>> exhibit an absolute minimum of flex. I recommend this setup.
>>
>>I guess there is really no need to rehash the discussion about unsprung
>>weight, and lousy transitional speeds with even the most expensive of 17"
>>rims compared to a 15"-- or even a 16".
>>
>>--
>>__
>>Miq Millman (email redacted)
>>Tualatin, OR
>>
>

This read-only message was archived from a public mail list.
Mail From: Erik Quinn <(email redacted)>


Speaking of stock wheels...

Of the three 'main' different types - '90-'93, '94-'97, and '99+, is there
any appreciable weight difference between the 3 types of stock alloys?
(Leaving out special ones like M-ed. wheels etc.)

Erik and Bluebell
'96PEP


On Tue, 19 Jan 1999, Dan Scolnick wrote:

>
> Or even the lowly stock 14" wheels that I use and prefer.
> /^\dans
>
>
>
> At 06:19 PM 1/18/99 -0800, (email redacted) wrote:
> >
> >Mel Hoagland says:
> >>
> >>
> >> I have a set of 17x7.5 rims on my Miata. I use 205 40R17 tires. The offset
> >
> >> to say the least. My cornering speeds increased dramatically, as these
> tires
> >> exhibit an absolute minimum of flex. I recommend this setup.
> >
> >I guess there is really no need to rehash the discussion about unsprung
> >weight, and lousy transitional speeds with even the most expensive of 17"
> >rims compared to a 15"-- or even a 16".
> >
> >--
> >__
> >Miq Millman (email redacted)
> >Tualatin, OR
> >
> >
>

This read-only message was archived from a public mail list.
Mail From: "Mel Hoagland" <(email redacted)>

For me, the first change I made from the stock car was to 17" wheels with
35mm offset and 205 40 tires. Even though the wheels I chose are
considerably heavier than the stock wheels, the change in the nature of the
car's handling was nothing short of awesome. So for me the increased tire
patch/decreased tire flex made a world of difference. I since went on to
change all the other components of the suspension and the car rides on
rails. This year, on to R compounds. Can someone tell me the best setup for
16" wheels and R compound tires? I will probably not be driving them too
much on the roads (but some).

TIA

Mel
------------------------------------------------------------
Mel Hoagland ((email redacted))
-----Original Message-----
From: Dan Scolnick <(email redacted)>
To: Shiv S. Pathak <(email redacted)>
Cc: Mel Hoagland <(email redacted)>; (email redacted) <(email redacted)>;
Miatapower Mailing List <(email redacted)>
Date: Tuesday, January 19, 1999 2:47 PM
Subject: Re: Wheel widths Re: A question of widening wheels


>At 12:36 AM 1/19/99 -0500, Shiv S. Pathak wrote:
>>Like all cars, the Miata's wheel choice was a compromise between
>performance, cost,
>>fuel economy, and ride quality (not necessarily in that order). All
>things equal,
>>I feel a *lightweight* 15" or 16" wheel, wrapped in reasonably wider,
>lower profile
>>tires will almost always improve grip, steering response and overall
>performance
>>(at the expense of ride quality, noise, mpg, etc,).
>>
>>I would be surprised if anyone this side of a Gerhard Berger could really
>notice
>>and complain about an extra, say, 3-5 pounds of unsprung rotational
>weight, even if
>>most of the mass is far away from the center.
>
>while 3-5lbs doesn't sound like very much weight it is 25-45% heavier.
>With the same argument I would be surprised if anyone this side of a
>zanardi could really notice or make use of the marginally wider contact
>patch and/or extra grip.
>
>I don't even come close to using all the grip that RA1's provide on the 14"
>wheels.
>
>/^\dans
>
>

This read-only message was archived from a public mail list.
Mail From: "Henry" <(email redacted)>

Many Formula classes specify the tire & wheel size, which is why they all s=
eem
to be running the same tire regardless of brand.

HP
____________________Reply Separator____________________
Subject: Re: Wheel widths Re: A question of widening wheels
Author: (email redacted)
Date: 1/18/99 4:42 PM


It seems to
me that formula cars have about as little rubber as they can get on the
wheel, wouldn't those cars benefit from smaller wheels/larger tires if ther=
e
was an across-the-board advantage to less unsprung weight, (e.g. the extra
weight was NOT balanced out in favor of stiffer rubber)? I know comparing
Miatas to formula racers is a bit of an oranges/apples comparison, but
surely there are enough parallels here. Am I missing a lot here? Or a
little?

Mel
------------------------------------------------------------
Mel Hoagland ((email redacted))
96 black FMII turbo coming up
-----Original Message-----
From: (email redacted) <(email redacted)>
To: (email redacted) <(email redacted)>
Cc: Miatapower Mailing List <(email redacted)>
Date: Tuesday, January 19, 1999 2:19 AM
Subject: Re: Wheel widths Re: A question of widening wheels


>Mel Hoagland says:
>>
>>
>> I have a set of 17x7.5 rims on my Miata. I use 205 40R17 tires. The
offset
>
>> to say the least. My cornering speeds increased dramatically, as these
tires
>> exhibit an absolute minimum of flex. I recommend this setup.
>
>I guess there is really no need to rehash the discussion about unsprung
>weight, and lousy transitional speeds with even the most expensive of 17"
>rims compared to a 15"-- or even a 16".
>
>--
>__
>Miq Millman (email redacted)
>Tualatin, OR
>

This read-only message was archived from a public mail list.
Mail From: Gordon Choate <(email redacted)>

Correct - Formula 1 regulations specify 13" wheels front and rear! They run
very stiff sidewalls to compensate for the tall profile. One of their possible
changes to the rules for 2 years down the road would be to allow bigger wheels
and lower profile tires, to closer resemble modern street wheel/tire
combinations.

Regards,
Gordon Choate
Calgary, Alberta, Canada
96 BRG/tan

On Tuesday, January 19, 1999 4:21 AM, Henry [SMTP:(email redacted)]
wrote:
>
> Many Formula classes specify the tire & wheel size, which is why they all
> seem
> to be running the same tire regardless of brand.
>
> HP
> ____________________Reply Separator____________________
> Subject: Re: Wheel widths Re: A question of widening wheels
> Author: (email redacted)
> Date: 1/18/99 4:42 PM
>
>
> It seems to
> me that formula cars have about as little rubber as they can get on the
> wheel, wouldn't those cars benefit from smaller wheels/larger tires if there
> was an across-the-board advantage to less unsprung weight, (e.g. the extra
> weight was NOT balanced out in favor of stiffer rubber)? I know comparing
> Miatas to formula racers is a bit of an oranges/apples comparison, but
> surely there are enough parallels here. Am I missing a lot here? Or a
> little?
>
> Mel
> ------------------------------------------------------------
> Mel Hoagland ((email redacted))
> 96 black FMII turbo coming up
> -----Original Message-----
> From: (email redacted) <(email redacted)>
> To: (email redacted) <(email redacted)>
> Cc: Miatapower Mailing List <(email redacted)>
> Date: Tuesday, January 19, 1999 2:19 AM
> Subject: Re: Wheel widths Re: A question of widening wheels
>
>
> >Mel Hoagland says:
> >>
> >>
> >> I have a set of 17x7.5 rims on my Miata. I use 205 40R17 tires. The
> offset
> >
> >> to say the least. My cornering speeds increased dramatically, as these
> tires
> >> exhibit an absolute minimum of flex. I recommend this setup.
> >
> >I guess there is really no need to rehash the discussion about unsprung
> >weight, and lousy transitional speeds with even the most expensive of 17"
> >rims compared to a 15"-- or even a 16".
> >
> >--
> >__
> >Miq Millman (email redacted)
> >Tualatin, OR
>

This read-only message was archived from a public mail list.
Mail From: Dan Scolnick <(email redacted)>

At 12:36 AM 1/19/99 -0500, Shiv S. Pathak wrote:
>Like all cars, the Miata's wheel choice was a compromise between
performance, cost,
>fuel economy, and ride quality (not necessarily in that order). All
things equal,
>I feel a *lightweight* 15" or 16" wheel, wrapped in reasonably wider,
lower profile
>tires will almost always improve grip, steering response and overall
performance
>(at the expense of ride quality, noise, mpg, etc,).
>
>I would be surprised if anyone this side of a Gerhard Berger could really
notice
>and complain about an extra, say, 3-5 pounds of unsprung rotational
weight, even if
>most of the mass is far away from the center.

while 3-5lbs doesn't sound like very much weight it is 25-45% heavier.
With the same argument I would be surprised if anyone this side of a
zanardi could really notice or make use of the marginally wider contact
patch and/or extra grip.

I don't even come close to using all the grip that RA1's provide on the 14"
wheels.

/^\dans

This read-only message was archived from a public mail list.
Mail From: "Shiv S. Pathak" <(email redacted)>

Dan Scolnick wrote:
>
> At 12:36 AM 1/19/99 -0500, Shiv S. Pathak wrote:
> >Like all cars, the Miata's wheel choice was a compromise between
> performance, cost,
> >fuel economy, and ride quality (not necessarily in that order). All
> things equal,
> >I feel a *lightweight* 15" or 16" wheel, wrapped in reasonably wider,
> lower profile
> >tires will almost always improve grip, steering response and overall
> performance
> >(at the expense of ride quality, noise, mpg, etc,).
> >
> >I would be surprised if anyone this side of a Gerhard Berger could really
> notice
> >and complain about an extra, say, 3-5 pounds of unsprung rotational
> weight, even if
> >most of the mass is far away from the center.
>
> while 3-5lbs doesn't sound like very much weight it is 25-45% heavier.
> With the same argument I would be surprised if anyone this side of a
> zanardi could really notice or make use of the marginally wider contact
> patch and/or extra grip.

I squeal my 235-45-17s all the time, even my RA1s (which don't really make noise, they just
"shuffle" around). If that makes me a Zanardi, then ALL RIGHT!

> I don't even come close to using all the grip that RA1's provide on the 14"
> wheels.

I'm sorry...

Seriously though, more important to me than the increased grip is the quicker, more direction
steering response and better break away characteristics. Driving the RX7 or Miata on stock
wheels feels like somewhat detatched and vague compared to a good +1 or even +2 tires/wheel
combo.

Shiv


> /^\dans

This read-only message was archived from a public mail list.
Mail From: Bill Cardell <(email redacted)>

I'm with Shiv. I always said bad things about 16" wheel/tire combos
until I felt the instant turn-in of short sidewalls on my 215/40-16s.
Kevin Lakkis lent me a pair and I fell in love. I don't think that
contact patch is the secret, it's sidewall height. Less time spent
winding up a tall sidewall before the tread moves is the way I look at
it. YTMV.

Shiv S. Pathak wrote:
>
> Like all cars, the Miata's wheel choice was a compromise between performance, cost,
> fuel economy, and ride quality (not necessarily in that order). All things equal,
> I feel a *lightweight* 15" or 16" wheel, wrapped in reasonably wider, lower profile
> tires will almost always improve grip, steering response and overall performance
> (at the expense of ride quality, noise, mpg, etc,).
>
> I would be surprised if anyone this side of a Gerhard Berger could really notice
> and complain about an extra, say, 3-5 pounds of unsprung rotational weight, even if
> most of the mass is far away from the center. A heavy 25lb TSW? Well, that's
> another story and definately not advisable if one has performance in mind.
>
> Dan Scolnick wrote:
> >
> > The issue can be rendered down to which has more effect on the miata.
> > Lower unsprung weight or a slighter wider contact patch. For me the car
> > needs the designed in low unsprung weight far more than it can make use of
> > the wider contact patch (like a behemoth like a camaro or a lincoln Mark8
> > can).
> >
> > While your comparison with F1 cars *could* be used *except* for the fact
> > that their wheels are extrememly light AND way more expensive than most
> > miata owners are willing to spend.
> >
> > Of course if the issue is cosmetic then by all means, go for the bigger
> > wheels.
> > *flame suit on*
> >
> > /^\dans
> >
> > At 09:42 PM 1/18/99 -0000, Mel Hoagland wrote:
> > >
> > >I would like to hear the discussion rehashed. Larger wheels means smaller
> > >tires - perhaps not an ounce-to-ounce trade off, but how much farther does
> > >the advantage of lower profile, stiffer tires swing the balance? It seems to
> > >me that formula cars have about as little rubber as they can get on the
> > >wheel, wouldn't those cars benefit from smaller wheels/larger tires if there
> > >was an across-the-board advantage to less unsprung weight, (e.g. the extra
> > >weight was NOT balanced out in favor of stiffer rubber)? I know comparing
> > >Miatas to formula racers is a bit of an oranges/apples comparison, but
> > >surely there are enough parallels here. Am I missing a lot here? Or a
> > >little?
> > >
> > >Mel
> > >------------------------------------------------------------
> > >Mel Hoagland ((email redacted))
> > >96 black FMII turbo coming up
> > >-----Original Message-----
> > >From: (email redacted) <(email redacted)>
> > >To: (email redacted) <(email redacted)>
> > >Cc: Miatapower Mailing List <(email redacted)>
> > >Date: Tuesday, January 19, 1999 2:19 AM
> > >Subject: Re: Wheel widths Re: A question of widening wheels
> > >
> > >
> > >>Mel Hoagland says:
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>> I have a set of 17x7.5 rims on my Miata. I use 205 40R17 tires. The
> > >offset
> > >>
> > >>> to say the least. My cornering speeds increased dramatically, as these
> > >tires
> > >>> exhibit an absolute minimum of flex. I recommend this setup.
> > >>
> > >>I guess there is really no need to rehash the discussion about unsprung
> > >>weight, and lousy transitional speeds with even the most expensive of 17"
> > >>rims compared to a 15"-- or even a 16".
> > >>
> > >>--
> > >>__
> > >>Miq Millman (email redacted)
> > >>Tualatin, OR
> > >>
> > >
> > >
> > >

This read-only message was archived from a public mail list.
Mail From: Kit Wetzler <(email redacted)>

> You're correct that lower profile tire will have a stiffer sidewall (all
> else being equal), with commensurate handling improvements (again, all
> else being equal). The European "production" car series allow
> ludicrously large wheels (20"?), but they also use ludicrously
> lightweight (read: expensive) wheels to keep unsprung weight down. Even > if you could afford to run these wheels on the street, the first pothole > would probably bend them (something that doesn't generally occur on a > racetrack, the curbs notwithstanding).

Actually... two things... they use large Magnesium wheels, which are
expensive and light, but the main reason that they use such large
diameter wheels is to fit big brakes under them. Touring Cars do lots of
breaking, straightaway leading into 1st and 2nd gear corners.

That said, I think that bigger brakes are the only justification for
running a wheel larger than 15"... there just aren't that many decent
performance tires in 14", and Race tires just aren't cost effective to
the mere mortals on this list. ;) my personal fav street tire is the
Pirelli P-Zero... I'd say they were almost as grippy as the Toyo RA1
(not quite, but hey, the P-Zeros have enough tread to deal with standing
water! ;)

The P-Zeros come in a 195/50r15, for only $74 last time I checked.
That's probably what I'll get next.

-Kit

This read-only message was archived from a public mail list.
Mail From: Craig Boyle <(email redacted)>

I'm not Zanardi Dan, but I can definitely tell the grip difference in a
225/50 and a 205/55 and a 185/60 in the same compound. I might be able to do
donuts in the 185's, but never in the 225's! I'd be happy to do a blindfold
"size test" at LS2.2 ;-).

The most driveable configuration really seems to be the 185/60 - less
tramlining and more agility. I've long itched to try a 155/80 13 or even a
175/65 14 - swapped from another car - but the opportunity has never arisen.
The 225/50 is a steamroller tire with huge grip, but it isn't much fun for
cruising.



IMHO the reason to put on bigger wheels is to accomodate bigger brakes -
with secondary reasons being tire availability, weight then cosmetics.

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Dan Scolnick [SMTP:(email redacted)]
> Sent: Tuesday, January 19, 1999 7:03 AM
> To: Shiv S. Pathak
> Cc: Mel Hoagland; (email redacted); Miatapower Mailing List
> Subject: Re: Wheel widths Re: A question of widening wheels
>
>
> At 12:36 AM 1/19/99 -0500, Shiv S. Pathak wrote:
> >Like all cars, the Miata's wheel choice was a compromise between
> performance, cost,
> >fuel economy, and ride quality (not necessarily in that order). All
> things equal,
> >I feel a *lightweight* 15" or 16" wheel, wrapped in reasonably wider,
> lower profile
> >tires will almost always improve grip, steering response and overall
> performance
> >(at the expense of ride quality, noise, mpg, etc,).
> >
> >I would be surprised if anyone this side of a Gerhard Berger could really
> notice
> >and complain about an extra, say, 3-5 pounds of unsprung rotational
> weight, even if
> >most of the mass is far away from the center.
>
> while 3-5lbs doesn't sound like very much weight it is 25-45% heavier.
> With the same argument I would be surprised if anyone this side of a
> zanardi could really notice or make use of the marginally wider contact
> patch and/or extra grip.
>
> I don't even come close to using all the grip that RA1's provide on the
> 14"
> wheels.
>
> /^\dans
>

This read-only message was archived from a public mail list.
Mail From: (email redacted)




"while 3-5lbs doesn't sound like very much weight it is 25-45% heavier.
With the same argument I would be surprised if anyone this side of a
zanardi could really notice or make use of the marginally wider contact
patch and/or extra grip."


Dan

Wouldn't you want to take in account all the unsprung weight - ie include
the rubber too ( maybe brakes ... ). Than the percentages would be ( at
most ) in the 10 percent range.

Dan




Dan Scolnick <(email redacted)> on 01/19/99 10:03:18 AM

Please respond to Dan Scolnick <(email redacted)>

To: "Shiv S. Pathak" <(email redacted)>
cc: Mel Hoagland <(email redacted)>, (email redacted), Miatapower
Mailing List <(email redacted)> (bcc: Dan W Thorpe/WLGORE)
Subject: Re: Wheel widths Re: A question of widening wheels





At 12:36 AM 1/19/99 -0500, Shiv S. Pathak wrote:
>Like all cars, the Miata's wheel choice was a compromise between
performance, cost,
>fuel economy, and ride quality (not necessarily in that order). All
things equal,
>I feel a *lightweight* 15" or 16" wheel, wrapped in reasonably wider,
lower profile
>tires will almost always improve grip, steering response and overall
performance
>(at the expense of ride quality, noise, mpg, etc,).
>
>I would be surprised if anyone this side of a Gerhard Berger could really
notice
>and complain about an extra, say, 3-5 pounds of unsprung rotational
weight, even if
>most of the mass is far away from the center.

while 3-5lbs doesn't sound like very much weight it is 25-45% heavier.
With the same argument I would be surprised if anyone this side of a
zanardi could really notice or make use of the marginally wider contact
patch and/or extra grip.

I don't even come close to using all the grip that RA1's provide on the 14"
wheels.

/^\dans

This read-only message was archived from a public mail list.
Mail From: (email redacted)

For a 16" wheel in a Miata size, the only thing available (the last time I
checked) was from Hoosier: 205/45-16. I was advised by tirerack that I
shouldn't even be driving on these tires to/from events, as they should be
treated as track-specific tires. Hence, that is why I am hoping the RA1s
come out soon in a Miata 16" size. Kevin?

At 10:35 AM 1/19/99 -0000, Mel Hoagland wrote:
>
>For me, the first change I made from the stock car was to 17" wheels with
>35mm offset and 205 40 tires. Even though the wheels I chose are
>considerably heavier than the stock wheels, the change in the nature of the
>car's handling was nothing short of awesome. So for me the increased tire
>patch/decreased tire flex made a world of difference. I since went on to
>change all the other components of the suspension and the car rides on
>rails. This year, on to R compounds. Can someone tell me the best setup for
>16" wheels and R compound tires? I will probably not be driving them too
>much on the roads (but some).
>
>TIA
>
>Mel
>------------------------------------------------------------
>Mel Hoagland ((email redacted))
>-----Original Message-----
>From: Dan Scolnick <(email redacted)
>To: Shiv S. Pathak <(email redacted)>
>Cc: Mel Hoagland <(email redacted)>; (email redacted) <(email redacted)>;
>Miatapower Mailing List <(email redacted)>
>Date: Tuesday, January 19, 1999 2:47 PM
>Subject: Re: Wheel widths Re: A question of widening wheels
>
>
>>At 12:36 AM 1/19/99 -0500, Shiv S. Pathak wrote:
>>>Like all cars, the Miata's wheel choice was a compromise between
>>performance, cost,
>>>fuel economy, and ride quality (not necessarily in that order). All
>>things equal,
>>>I feel a *lightweight* 15" or 16" wheel, wrapped in reasonably wider,
>>lower profile
>>>tires will almost always improve grip, steering response and overall
>>performance
>>>(at the expense of ride quality, noise, mpg, etc,).
>>>
>>>I would be surprised if anyone this side of a Gerhard Berger could really
>>notice
>>>and complain about an extra, say, 3-5 pounds of unsprung rotational
>>weight, even if
>>>most of the mass is far away from the center.
>>
>>while 3-5lbs doesn't sound like very much weight it is 25-45% heavier.
>>With the same argument I would be surprised if anyone this side of a
>>zanardi could really notice or make use of the marginally wider contact
>>patch and/or extra grip.
>>
>>I don't even come close to using all the grip that RA1's provide on the 14"
>>wheels.
>>
>>/^\dans
>>
>>
>
>
>