Miatapower List Archive

This read-only message was archived from a public mail list.
Mail From: Eric Schieb <(email redacted)>

I will be supporting a customer at Bonneville. He recently purchased a
turbo bike with a standalone ECU that was tuned at sea level. As his
engine tuner, what things do I need to consider as we head to Bonneville
(high elevation, dry, hot)?

Obviously we will be going for the maximum safe power.

thanks for the tips,

Eric Schieb

This read-only message was archived from a public mail list.
Mail From: Mark Cookson <(email redacted)>

The only point of interest I can offer is that the same amount of boost
comes at a higher turbo RPM (say 100k RPM instead of 90k RPM), so be aware
of over spinning the turbo (shaft end play, lubrication, etc).
Also, at high load short burst, the intercooler is going to act more like a
heat sink than a heat dissipation device. Adding mass to it may be useful.
If possible, bring water/alcohol mix to spray it down after a run, but it's
unlikely that you'll need any system on the bike during the run.

Good luck, have fun, and stay safe!

Mark

On Thu, Aug 27, 2009 at 9:22 PM, Eric Schieb <(email redacted)> wrote:

> I will be supporting a customer at Bonneville. He recently purchased a
> turbo bike with a standalone ECU that was tuned at sea level. As his
> engine tuner, what things do I need to consider as we head to Bonneville
> (high elevation, dry, hot)?
>
> Obviously we will be going for the maximum safe power.
>
> thanks for the tips,
>
> Eric Schieb
> _______________________________________________
> Miatapower mailing list
> (email redacted)
> list.miatapower.net/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/miatapower
>

This read-only message was archived from a public mail list.
Mail From: Eric Schieb <(email redacted)>

MC:>Also, at high load short burst, the intercooler is going to act more
like a heat sink than a heat dissipation device.

And the air is thin so does not do as good a job of cooling.

MC:>same amount of boost comes at a higher turbo RPM

The first thing that this brings to mind is intake temperatures (due to
the high ambient temperatures and the high pressure ratio on the
compressor). Are there any good rules of thumb regarding inlet
temperatures?

thanks,

Eric Schieb

Mark Cookson wrote:
> The only point of interest I can offer is that the same amount of boost
> comes at a higher turbo RPM (say 100k RPM instead of 90k RPM), so be aware
> of over spinning the turbo (shaft end play, lubrication, etc).
> Also, at high load short burst, the intercooler is going to act more like a
> heat sink than a heat dissipation device. Adding mass to it may be useful.
> If possible, bring water/alcohol mix to spray it down after a run, but it's
> unlikely that you'll need any system on the bike during the run.
>
> Good luck, have fun, and stay safe!
>
> Mark
>
> On Thu, Aug 27, 2009 at 9:22 PM, Eric Schieb <(email redacted)> wrote:
>
>
>> I will be supporting a customer at Bonneville. He recently purchased a
>> turbo bike with a standalone ECU that was tuned at sea level. As his
>> engine tuner, what things do I need to consider as we head to Bonneville
>> (high elevation, dry, hot)?
>>
>> Obviously we will be going for the maximum safe power.
>>
>> thanks for the tips,
>>
>> Eric Schieb
>> _______________________________________________
>> Miatapower mailing list
>> (email redacted)
>> list.miatapower.net/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/miatapower
>>
>>
>
>

This read-only message was archived from a public mail list.
Mail From: "Bill Cardell" <(email redacted)>

The short answer is you are heading into the near perfect storm of
overheating. No air density over the rad and ic, turbo and engine
working harder to make less power, no humidity and usually high
ambients. At FM, you can add in piss poor gas and a local track that is
only .9 miles with lots of turns, so all boost off the turns and no
actual speed to get airflow. At least you'll have speed, but in place
you'll have duration to deal with.=20

Water/meth injection is your friend for sure. Also, *if* you could get
an ic/radiator sprayer working without getting water on the rider or
tire, would be good. I don't want to be the guy blamed for the wet tire,
though...
Just as a point of reference, in the same crappy conditions on our local
kart track, the Westfield sees 25-30C intake temps at 15 psi with ic and
water/meth, no ic spray. So nearly ambient intake temps. Car itself
still wants to run hot, but I'd guess any bike motor has a more
efficient cooling system than the Miata.

As Mark said, IC heatsoak can be a killer and you'll be pulling all
kinds of timing based on airtemp if/when it happens.


Bill Cardell
TurboDog's Dad
Flyin' Miata
1-800-359-6967 (sales)
970-464-5600 (tech support)
www.flyinmiata.com
www.fmwestfield.com


-----Original Message-----
From: (email redacted)
[mailto:(email redacted)] On Behalf Of Eric Schieb
Sent: Friday, August 28, 2009 7:54 AM
To: Miatapower
Subject: Re: turbos and altitude NMC but turbos and power

MC:>Also, at high load short burst, the intercooler is going to act more
like a heat sink than a heat dissipation device.

And the air is thin so does not do as good a job of cooling.

MC:>same amount of boost comes at a higher turbo RPM

The first thing that this brings to mind is intake temperatures (due to
the high ambient temperatures and the high pressure ratio on the
compressor). Are there any good rules of thumb regarding inlet
temperatures?

thanks,

Eric Schieb

Mark Cookson wrote:
> The only point of interest I can offer is that the same amount of=20
> boost comes at a higher turbo RPM (say 100k RPM instead of 90k RPM),=20
> so be aware of over spinning the turbo (shaft end play, lubrication,
etc).
> Also, at high load short burst, the intercooler is going to act more=20
> like a heat sink than a heat dissipation device. Adding mass to it
may be useful.
> If possible, bring water/alcohol mix to spray it down after a run,=20
> but it's unlikely that you'll need any system on the bike during the
run.
>
> Good luck, have fun, and stay safe!
>
> Mark
>
> On Thu, Aug 27, 2009 at 9:22 PM, Eric Schieb <(email redacted)>
wrote:
>
> =20
>> I will be supporting a customer at Bonneville. He recently purchased

>> a turbo bike with a standalone ECU that was tuned at sea level. As=20
>> his engine tuner, what things do I need to consider as we head to=20
>> Bonneville (high elevation, dry, hot)?
>>
>> Obviously we will be going for the maximum safe power.
>>
>> thanks for the tips,
>>
>> Eric Schieb
>> _______________________________________________
>> Miatapower mailing list
>> (email redacted)
>> list.miatapower.net/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/miatapower
>>
>> =20
>
> =20

_______________________________________________
Miatapower mailing list
(email redacted)
list.miatapower.net/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/miatapower

This read-only message was archived from a public mail list.
Mail From: Eric Schieb <(email redacted)>

BC:>you'll have duration to deal with

Yep, the FIRST timing light is 4.5 miles from the place you launch.
That is a relatively long distance at wide open throttle.

Regarding any hardware: I need to learn about the potential hardware;
however, the first time I will see the bike is on the salt flats. I
will not get much input on the hardware for 2009. Maybe 2010.

I suspect that the IC is in an ice bath but I am not sure.

When I worked on a record setting pickup truck (224 mph), we used a huge
ice water container in the bed for engine cooling.

BC:>As Mark said, IC heatsoak can be a killer and you'll be pulling all
kinds of timing based on airtemp if/when it happens.

I need to get into the right mindset . . . If the intake air temp gets
too hot (number?) I will need to cut timing to prevent detonation.
Cutting timing will increase exhaust temps. This will increase turbo
inlet (and exhaust valve temps). Presumably boost and detonation will
increase unless I get the boost down or find a way to keep intake temps
in a reasonable window. Did I get it right?

Eric Schieb

Bill Cardell wrote:
> The short answer is you are heading into the near perfect storm of
> overheating. No air density over the rad and ic, turbo and engine
> working harder to make less power, no humidity and usually high
> ambients. At FM, you can add in piss poor gas and a local track that is
> only .9 miles with lots of turns, so all boost off the turns and no
> actual speed to get airflow. At least you'll have speed, but in place
> you'll have duration to deal with.
>
> Water/meth injection is your friend for sure. Also, *if* you could get
> an ic/radiator sprayer working without getting water on the rider or
> tire, would be good. I don't want to be the guy blamed for the wet tire,
> though...
> Just as a point of reference, in the same crappy conditions on our local
> kart track, the Westfield sees 25-30C intake temps at 15 psi with ic and
> water/meth, no ic spray. So nearly ambient intake temps. Car itself
> still wants to run hot, but I'd guess any bike motor has a more
> efficient cooling system than the Miata.
>
> As Mark said, IC heatsoak can be a killer and you'll be pulling all
> kinds of timing based on airtemp if/when it happens.
>
>
> Bill Cardell
> TurboDog's Dad
> Flyin' Miata
> 1-800-359-6967 (sales)
> 970-464-5600 (tech support)
> www.flyinmiata.com
> www.fmwestfield.com
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: (email redacted)
> [mailto:(email redacted)] On Behalf Of Eric Schieb
> Sent: Friday, August 28, 2009 7:54 AM
> To: Miatapower
> Subject: Re: turbos and altitude NMC but turbos and power
>
> MC:>Also, at high load short burst, the intercooler is going to act more
> like a heat sink than a heat dissipation device.
>
> And the air is thin so does not do as good a job of cooling.
>
> MC:>same amount of boost comes at a higher turbo RPM
>
> The first thing that this brings to mind is intake temperatures (due to
> the high ambient temperatures and the high pressure ratio on the
> compressor). Are there any good rules of thumb regarding inlet
> temperatures?
>
> thanks,
>
> Eric Schieb
>
> Mark Cookson wrote:
>
>> The only point of interest I can offer is that the same amount of
>> boost comes at a higher turbo RPM (say 100k RPM instead of 90k RPM),
>> so be aware of over spinning the turbo (shaft end play, lubrication,
>>
> etc).
>
>> Also, at high load short burst, the intercooler is going to act more
>> like a heat sink than a heat dissipation device. Adding mass to it
>>
> may be useful.
>
>> If possible, bring water/alcohol mix to spray it down after a run,
>> but it's unlikely that you'll need any system on the bike during the
>>
> run.
>
>> Good luck, have fun, and stay safe!
>>
>> Mark
>>
>> On Thu, Aug 27, 2009 at 9:22 PM, Eric Schieb <(email redacted)>
>>
> wrote:
>
>>
>>
>>> I will be supporting a customer at Bonneville. He recently purchased
>>>
>
>
>>> a turbo bike with a standalone ECU that was tuned at sea level. As
>>> his engine tuner, what things do I need to consider as we head to
>>> Bonneville (high elevation, dry, hot)?
>>>
>>> Obviously we will be going for the maximum safe power.
>>>
>>> thanks for the tips,
>>>
>>> Eric Schieb
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Miatapower mailing list
>>> (email redacted)
>>> list.miatapower.net/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/miatapower
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Miatapower mailing list
> (email redacted)
> list.miatapower.net/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/miatapower
>
>

This read-only message was archived from a public mail list.
Mail From: "Bill Cardell" <(email redacted)>

You have described the loop to death perfectly. Keep cranking the timing
back 'til things melt.. With the distances and time under boost you'll
have your hands full keeping things cool, with the packaging constraints
of a bike thrown in for good measure. Not much room for ice or even
water/meth. I go through nearly three qts in a 20 minute session at
Laguna Seca, the bike would require more, as it's probably making way
more power- is it a litre bike?=20


Bill Cardell
TurboDog's Dad
www.flyinmiata.com
www.fmwestfield.com
Sales 1-800-359-6957
Tech 970-464-5600 Before you call, check out
flyinmiata.com/FAQ/


-----Original Message-----
From: (email redacted)
[mailto:(email redacted)] On Behalf Of Eric Schieb
Sent: Friday, August 28, 2009 9:03 AM
To: Miatapower
Subject: Re: turbos and altitude NMC but turbos and power

BC:>you'll have duration to deal with

Yep, the FIRST timing light is 4.5 miles from the place you launch. =20
That is a relatively long distance at wide open throttle.

Regarding any hardware: I need to learn about the potential hardware;
however, the first time I will see the bike is on the salt flats. I
will not get much input on the hardware for 2009. Maybe 2010.

I suspect that the IC is in an ice bath but I am not sure.

When I worked on a record setting pickup truck (224 mph), we used a huge
ice water container in the bed for engine cooling.

BC:>As Mark said, IC heatsoak can be a killer and you'll be pulling all
kinds of timing based on airtemp if/when it happens.

I need to get into the right mindset . . . If the intake air temp gets
too hot (number?) I will need to cut timing to prevent detonation. =20
Cutting timing will increase exhaust temps. This will increase turbo
inlet (and exhaust valve temps). Presumably boost and detonation will
increase unless I get the boost down or find a way to keep intake temps
in a reasonable window. Did I get it right?

Eric Schieb

Bill Cardell wrote:
> The short answer is you are heading into the near perfect storm of=20
> overheating. No air density over the rad and ic, turbo and engine=20
> working harder to make less power, no humidity and usually high=20
> ambients. At FM, you can add in piss poor gas and a local track that=20
> is only .9 miles with lots of turns, so all boost off the turns and no

> actual speed to get airflow. At least you'll have speed, but in place=20
> you'll have duration to deal with.
>
> Water/meth injection is your friend for sure. Also, *if* you could get

> an ic/radiator sprayer working without getting water on the rider or=20
> tire, would be good. I don't want to be the guy blamed for the wet=20
> tire, though...
> Just as a point of reference, in the same crappy conditions on our=20
> local kart track, the Westfield sees 25-30C intake temps at 15 psi=20
> with ic and water/meth, no ic spray. So nearly ambient intake temps.=20
> Car itself still wants to run hot, but I'd guess any bike motor has a=20
> more efficient cooling system than the Miata.
>
> As Mark said, IC heatsoak can be a killer and you'll be pulling all=20
> kinds of timing based on airtemp if/when it happens.
>
>
> Bill Cardell
> TurboDog's Dad
> Flyin' Miata
> 1-800-359-6967 (sales)
> 970-464-5600 (tech support)
> www.flyinmiata.com
> www.fmwestfield.com
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: (email redacted)=20
> [mailto:(email redacted)] On Behalf Of Eric Schieb
> Sent: Friday, August 28, 2009 7:54 AM
> To: Miatapower
> Subject: Re: turbos and altitude NMC but turbos and power
>
> MC:>Also, at high load short burst, the intercooler is going to act=20
> more like a heat sink than a heat dissipation device.
>
> And the air is thin so does not do as good a job of cooling.
>
> MC:>same amount of boost comes at a higher turbo RPM
>
> The first thing that this brings to mind is intake temperatures (due=20
> to the high ambient temperatures and the high pressure ratio on the=20
> compressor). Are there any good rules of thumb regarding inlet=20
> temperatures?
>
> thanks,
>
> Eric Schieb
>
> Mark Cookson wrote:
> =20
>> The only point of interest I can offer is that the same amount of=20
>> boost comes at a higher turbo RPM (say 100k RPM instead of 90k RPM),=20
>> so be aware of over spinning the turbo (shaft end play, lubrication,
>> =20
> etc).
> =20
>> Also, at high load short burst, the intercooler is going to act more=20
>> like a heat sink than a heat dissipation device. Adding mass to it
>> =20
> may be useful.
> =20
>> If possible, bring water/alcohol mix to spray it down after a run,=20
>> but it's unlikely that you'll need any system on the bike during the
>> =20
> run.
> =20
>> Good luck, have fun, and stay safe!
>>
>> Mark
>>
>> On Thu, Aug 27, 2009 at 9:22 PM, Eric Schieb <(email redacted)>
>> =20
> wrote:
> =20
>> =20
>> =20
>>> I will be supporting a customer at Bonneville. He recently=20
>>> purchased
>>> =20
>
> =20
>>> a turbo bike with a standalone ECU that was tuned at sea level. As=20
>>> his engine tuner, what things do I need to consider as we head to=20
>>> Bonneville (high elevation, dry, hot)?
>>>
>>> Obviously we will be going for the maximum safe power.
>>>
>>> thanks for the tips,
>>>
>>> Eric Schieb
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Miatapower mailing list
>>> (email redacted)
>>> list.miatapower.net/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/miatapower
>>>
>>> =20
>>> =20
>> =20
>> =20
>
> _______________________________________________
> Miatapower mailing list
> (email redacted)
> list.miatapower.net/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/miatapower
>
> =20

_______________________________________________
Miatapower mailing list
(email redacted)
list.miatapower.net/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/miatapower

This read-only message was archived from a public mail list.
Mail From: Eric Schieb <(email redacted)>

I believe it is at 1 liter.

In my my mind, one of the big questions is how was the turbo chosen.
Since the pressure ratios will be higher, it seems like there is
significant room for error if the turbo chooser is used to sea level.
The efficiency with which it reaches its intended boost will be part of
the key to keeping the intake (and exhaust) temps down.

We discussed how reducing timing can save an engine in the short run
(any rules of thumb on degrees per degrees?). But we haven't discussed
fuel. Is this a good way to stop detonation (and temps?).

Eric Schieb

Bill Cardell wrote:
> You have described the loop to death perfectly. Keep cranking the timing
> back 'til things melt.. With the distances and time under boost you'll
> have your hands full keeping things cool, with the packaging constraints
> of a bike thrown in for good measure. Not much room for ice or even
> water/meth. I go through nearly three qts in a 20 minute session at
> Laguna Seca, the bike would require more, as it's probably making way
> more power- is it a litre bike?
>
>
> Bill Cardell
> TurboDog's Dad
> www.flyinmiata.com
> www.fmwestfield.com
> Sales 1-800-359-6957
> Tech 970-464-5600 Before you call, check out
> flyinmiata.com/FAQ/
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: (email redacted)
> [mailto:(email redacted)] On Behalf Of Eric Schieb
> Sent: Friday, August 28, 2009 9:03 AM
> To: Miatapower
> Subject: Re: turbos and altitude NMC but turbos and power
>
> BC:>you'll have duration to deal with
>
> Yep, the FIRST timing light is 4.5 miles from the place you launch.
> That is a relatively long distance at wide open throttle.
>
> Regarding any hardware: I need to learn about the potential hardware;
> however, the first time I will see the bike is on the salt flats. I
> will not get much input on the hardware for 2009. Maybe 2010.
>
> I suspect that the IC is in an ice bath but I am not sure.
>
> When I worked on a record setting pickup truck (224 mph), we used a huge
> ice water container in the bed for engine cooling.
>
> BC:>As Mark said, IC heatsoak can be a killer and you'll be pulling all
> kinds of timing based on airtemp if/when it happens.
>
> I need to get into the right mindset . . . If the intake air temp gets
> too hot (number?) I will need to cut timing to prevent detonation.
> Cutting timing will increase exhaust temps. This will increase turbo
> inlet (and exhaust valve temps). Presumably boost and detonation will
> increase unless I get the boost down or find a way to keep intake temps
> in a reasonable window. Did I get it right?
>
> Eric Schieb
>
> Bill Cardell wrote:
>
>> The short answer is you are heading into the near perfect storm of
>> overheating. No air density over the rad and ic, turbo and engine
>> working harder to make less power, no humidity and usually high
>> ambients. At FM, you can add in piss poor gas and a local track that
>> is only .9 miles with lots of turns, so all boost off the turns and no
>>
>
>
>> actual speed to get airflow. At least you'll have speed, but in place
>> you'll have duration to deal with.
>>
>> Water/meth injection is your friend for sure. Also, *if* you could get
>>
>
>
>> an ic/radiator sprayer working without getting water on the rider or
>> tire, would be good. I don't want to be the guy blamed for the wet
>> tire, though...
>> Just as a point of reference, in the same crappy conditions on our
>> local kart track, the Westfield sees 25-30C intake temps at 15 psi
>> with ic and water/meth, no ic spray. So nearly ambient intake temps.
>> Car itself still wants to run hot, but I'd guess any bike motor has a
>> more efficient cooling system than the Miata.
>>
>> As Mark said, IC heatsoak can be a killer and you'll be pulling all
>> kinds of timing based on airtemp if/when it happens.
>>
>>
>> Bill Cardell
>> TurboDog's Dad
>> Flyin' Miata
>> 1-800-359-6967 (sales)
>> 970-464-5600 (tech support)
>> www.flyinmiata.com
>> www.fmwestfield.com
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: (email redacted)
>> [mailto:(email redacted)] On Behalf Of Eric Schieb
>> Sent: Friday, August 28, 2009 7:54 AM
>> To: Miatapower
>> Subject: Re: turbos and altitude NMC but turbos and power
>>
>> MC:>Also, at high load short burst, the intercooler is going to act
>> more like a heat sink than a heat dissipation device.
>>
>> And the air is thin so does not do as good a job of cooling.
>>
>> MC:>same amount of boost comes at a higher turbo RPM
>>
>> The first thing that this brings to mind is intake temperatures (due
>> to the high ambient temperatures and the high pressure ratio on the
>> compressor). Are there any good rules of thumb regarding inlet
>> temperatures?
>>
>> thanks,
>>
>> Eric Schieb
>>
>> Mark Cookson wrote:
>>
>>
>>> The only point of interest I can offer is that the same amount of
>>> boost comes at a higher turbo RPM (say 100k RPM instead of 90k RPM),
>>> so be aware of over spinning the turbo (shaft end play, lubrication,
>>>
>>>
>> etc).
>>
>>
>>> Also, at high load short burst, the intercooler is going to act more
>>> like a heat sink than a heat dissipation device. Adding mass to it
>>>
>>>
>> may be useful.
>>
>>
>>> If possible, bring water/alcohol mix to spray it down after a run,
>>> but it's unlikely that you'll need any system on the bike during the
>>>
>>>
>> run.
>>
>>
>>> Good luck, have fun, and stay safe!
>>>
>>> Mark
>>>
>>> On Thu, Aug 27, 2009 at 9:22 PM, Eric Schieb <(email redacted)>
>>>
>>>
>> wrote:
>>
>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>> I will be supporting a customer at Bonneville. He recently
>>>> purchased
>>>>
>>>>
>>
>>
>>>> a turbo bike with a standalone ECU that was tuned at sea level. As
>>>> his engine tuner, what things do I need to consider as we head to
>>>> Bonneville (high elevation, dry, hot)?
>>>>
>>>> Obviously we will be going for the maximum safe power.
>>>>
>>>> thanks for the tips,
>>>>
>>>> Eric Schieb
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Miatapower mailing list
>>>> (email redacted)
>>>> list.miatapower.net/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/miatapower
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Miatapower mailing list
>> (email redacted)
>> list.miatapower.net/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/miatapower
>>
>>
>>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Miatapower mailing list
> (email redacted)
> list.miatapower.net/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/miatapower
>
>

This read-only message was archived from a public mail list.
Mail From: "Bill Cardell" <(email redacted)>

Turbo sizing will play a big part in the temps for sure. As far as
retard from air temp, we typically start with -1 @50 and 60C, -2@70 and
80C, -3@90 and 100. I bet your evil twin would have some good input.
Running way richer than you really want for power will help keep the
temps down, 10.5-11/1. If you could run the water/meth you'd be able to
keep your timing and run closer to 12.5/1, while keeping egts down.
=20


Bill Cardell
TurboDog's Dad
www.flyinmiata.com
www.fmwestfield.com
Sales 1-800-359-6957
Tech 970-464-5600 Before you call, check out
flyinmiata.com/FAQ/


-----Original Message-----
From: (email redacted)
[mailto:(email redacted)] On Behalf Of Eric Schieb
Sent: Friday, August 28, 2009 10:29 AM
Cc: Miatapower
Subject: Re: turbos and altitude NMC but turbos and power

I believe it is at 1 liter.

In my my mind, one of the big questions is how was the turbo chosen. =20
Since the pressure ratios will be higher, it seems like there is
significant room for error if the turbo chooser is used to sea level. =20
The efficiency with which it reaches its intended boost will be part of
the key to keeping the intake (and exhaust) temps down.

We discussed how reducing timing can save an engine in the short run=20
(any rules of thumb on degrees per degrees?). But we haven't discussed

fuel. Is this a good way to stop detonation (and temps?).

Eric Schieb

Bill Cardell wrote:
> You have described the loop to death perfectly. Keep cranking the=20
> timing back 'til things melt.. With the distances and time under boost

> you'll have your hands full keeping things cool, with the packaging=20
> constraints of a bike thrown in for good measure. Not much room for=20
> ice or even water/meth. I go through nearly three qts in a 20 minute=20
> session at Laguna Seca, the bike would require more, as it's probably=20
> making way more power- is it a litre bike?
>
>
> Bill Cardell
> TurboDog's Dad
> www.flyinmiata.com
> www.fmwestfield.com
> Sales 1-800-359-6957
> Tech 970-464-5600 Before you call, check out=20
> flyinmiata.com/FAQ/
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: (email redacted)=20
> [mailto:(email redacted)] On Behalf Of Eric Schieb
> Sent: Friday, August 28, 2009 9:03 AM
> To: Miatapower
> Subject: Re: turbos and altitude NMC but turbos and power
>
> BC:>you'll have duration to deal with
>
> Yep, the FIRST timing light is 4.5 miles from the place you launch. =20
> That is a relatively long distance at wide open throttle.
>
> Regarding any hardware: I need to learn about the potential hardware;

> however, the first time I will see the bike is on the salt flats. I=20
> will not get much input on the hardware for 2009. Maybe 2010.
>
> I suspect that the IC is in an ice bath but I am not sure.
>
> When I worked on a record setting pickup truck (224 mph), we used a=20
> huge ice water container in the bed for engine cooling.
>
> BC:>As Mark said, IC heatsoak can be a killer and you'll be pulling=20
> all kinds of timing based on airtemp if/when it happens.
>
> I need to get into the right mindset . . . If the intake air temp gets

> too hot (number?) I will need to cut timing to prevent detonation.
> Cutting timing will increase exhaust temps. This will increase turbo=20
> inlet (and exhaust valve temps). Presumably boost and detonation will

> increase unless I get the boost down or find a way to keep intake=20
> temps in a reasonable window. Did I get it right?
>
> Eric Schieb
>
> Bill Cardell wrote:
> =20
>> The short answer is you are heading into the near perfect storm of=20
>> overheating. No air density over the rad and ic, turbo and engine=20
>> working harder to make less power, no humidity and usually high=20
>> ambients. At FM, you can add in piss poor gas and a local track that=20
>> is only .9 miles with lots of turns, so all boost off the turns and=20
>> no
>> =20
>
> =20
>> actual speed to get airflow. At least you'll have speed, but in place

>> you'll have duration to deal with.
>>
>> Water/meth injection is your friend for sure. Also, *if* you could=20
>> get
>> =20
>
> =20
>> an ic/radiator sprayer working without getting water on the rider or=20
>> tire, would be good. I don't want to be the guy blamed for the wet=20
>> tire, though...
>> Just as a point of reference, in the same crappy conditions on our=20
>> local kart track, the Westfield sees 25-30C intake temps at 15 psi=20
>> with ic and water/meth, no ic spray. So nearly ambient intake temps.
>> Car itself still wants to run hot, but I'd guess any bike motor has a

>> more efficient cooling system than the Miata.
>>
>> As Mark said, IC heatsoak can be a killer and you'll be pulling all=20
>> kinds of timing based on airtemp if/when it happens.
>>
>>
>> Bill Cardell
>> TurboDog's Dad
>> Flyin' Miata
>> 1-800-359-6967 (sales)
>> 970-464-5600 (tech support)
>> www.flyinmiata.com
>> www.fmwestfield.com
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: (email redacted)=20
>> [mailto:(email redacted)] On Behalf Of Eric Schieb
>> Sent: Friday, August 28, 2009 7:54 AM
>> To: Miatapower
>> Subject: Re: turbos and altitude NMC but turbos and power
>>
>> MC:>Also, at high load short burst, the intercooler is going to act=20
>> more like a heat sink than a heat dissipation device.
>>
>> And the air is thin so does not do as good a job of cooling.
>>
>> MC:>same amount of boost comes at a higher turbo RPM
>>
>> The first thing that this brings to mind is intake temperatures (due=20
>> to the high ambient temperatures and the high pressure ratio on the=20
>> compressor). Are there any good rules of thumb regarding inlet=20
>> temperatures?
>>
>> thanks,
>>
>> Eric Schieb
>>
>> Mark Cookson wrote:
>> =20
>> =20
>>> The only point of interest I can offer is that the same amount of=20
>>> boost comes at a higher turbo RPM (say 100k RPM instead of 90k RPM),

>>> so be aware of over spinning the turbo (shaft end play, lubrication,
>>> =20
>>> =20
>> etc).
>> =20
>> =20
>>> Also, at high load short burst, the intercooler is going to act more

>>> like a heat sink than a heat dissipation device. Adding mass to it
>>> =20
>>> =20
>> may be useful.
>> =20
>> =20
>>> If possible, bring water/alcohol mix to spray it down after a run,=20
>>> but it's unlikely that you'll need any system on the bike during the
>>> =20
>>> =20
>> run.
>> =20
>> =20
>>> Good luck, have fun, and stay safe!
>>>
>>> Mark
>>>
>>> On Thu, Aug 27, 2009 at 9:22 PM, Eric Schieb <(email redacted)>
>>> =20
>>> =20
>> wrote:
>> =20
>> =20
>>> =20
>>> =20
>>> =20
>>>> I will be supporting a customer at Bonneville. He recently=20
>>>> purchased
>>>> =20
>>>> =20
>> =20
>> =20
>>>> a turbo bike with a standalone ECU that was tuned at sea level. As

>>>> his engine tuner, what things do I need to consider as we head to=20
>>>> Bonneville (high elevation, dry, hot)?
>>>>
>>>> Obviously we will be going for the maximum safe power.
>>>>
>>>> thanks for the tips,
>>>>
>>>> Eric Schieb
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Miatapower mailing list
>>>> (email redacted)
>>>> list.miatapower.net/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/miatapower
>>>>
>>>> =20
>>>> =20
>>>> =20
>>> =20
>>> =20
>>> =20
>> _______________________________________________
>> Miatapower mailing list
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>>
>> =20
>> =20
>
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Mail From: (email redacted)

What fuel Eric? I'd look into E85. It will generate much lower EGTs than
will race gas and will make at least as much or more power than Q16.

Jim in Tucson



In a message dated 8/27/2009 7:23:00 P.M. US Mountain Standard Time,
(email redacted) writes:

I will be supporting a customer at Bonneville. He recently purchased a
turbo bike with a standalone ECU that was tuned at sea level. As his
engine tuner, what things do I need to consider as we head to Bonneville
(high elevation, dry, hot)?

Obviously we will be going for the maximum safe power.

thanks for the tips,

Eric Schieb
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