Miatapower List Archive

This read-only message was archived from a public mail list.
Mail From: Dillon <(email redacted)>

I've posted on and off about my engine "troubles" so I apologize if any of
this is repeated.

I have a 99 10AE that just tipped 70k miles. I'm planning to add a turbo
(specific kit / parts not yet determined) with a Megasquirt ECU for engine
management. I plan to start at around 5-6psi and upgrade from there. First
step is to get the MS wired up and working, then I'd like to add the turbo.

However, before starting anything, I checked the compression on the motor
and did a leakdown test that showed leaking around the rings.

- Dry/hot Compression: 175 - 152 - 150 - 175
- Wet/hot compression: 200 - 187 - 180 - 205
- Leakdown: 25% - 35% - 35% - 10%

I am not using any appreciable amount of oil now, and the car seems healthy
(aside from the numbers). I was shopping for a replacement block, or a
reputable shop to rebuild the bottom-end, but it's been suggested that I
should just turbo the motor that I've got, and deal with the engine rebuild
in the future.

Considering my low (initial) power goals, how much of a gamble is this? If
I could squeak out 6-12 months on this motor before it started using lots of
oil, I'd be a happy camper. What do you guys think? Any experiences
boosting a motor with numbers like mine?

This read-only message was archived from a public mail list.
Mail From: Jason C <(email redacted)>

Do a Seafoam treatment on it - I've heard of motors
recover after a treatment.

If that helps but still not perfect, try AutoRx.


--- Dillon <(email redacted)> wrote:

> I've posted on and off about my engine "troubles" so
> I apologize if any of
> this is repeated.
>
> I have a 99 10AE that just tipped 70k miles. I'm
> planning to add a turbo
> (specific kit / parts not yet determined) with a
> Megasquirt ECU for engine
> management. I plan to start at around 5-6psi and
> upgrade from there. First
> step is to get the MS wired up and working, then I'd
> like to add the turbo.
>
> However, before starting anything, I checked the
> compression on the motor
> and did a leakdown test that showed leaking around
> the rings.
>
> - Dry/hot Compression: 175 - 152 - 150 - 175
> - Wet/hot compression: 200 - 187 - 180 - 205
> - Leakdown: 25% - 35% - 35% - 10%
>
> I am not using any appreciable amount of oil now,
> and the car seems healthy
> (aside from the numbers). I was shopping for a
> replacement block, or a
> reputable shop to rebuild the bottom-end, but it's
> been suggested that I
> should just turbo the motor that I've got, and deal
> with the engine rebuild
> in the future.
>
> Considering my low (initial) power goals, how much
> of a gamble is this? If
> I could squeak out 6-12 months on this motor before
> it started using lots of
> oil, I'd be a happy camper. What do you guys think?
> Any experiences
> boosting a motor with numbers like mine?
> > _______________________________________________
> Miatapower mailing list
> (email redacted)
>
list.miatapower.net/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/miatapower
>

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Mail From: Bryan Wyatt <(email redacted)>

No offense, but it just sounds like a bad idea.&nbsp; If you're going to have to rebuild it anyway, why not spend the money and do it right the first time?&nbsp; The way you're looking at going (I seriously don't understand the advice you've been given), you basically drive it till it dies then do the work--when the engine could be in even worse shape and need more things replaced/rebuilt.
&nbsp;
I don't get it...then again, my mechanical advice right now isn't worth the electrons inconvenienced in its delivery :-p
&nbsp;
-Bryan

--- On Tue, 6/10/08, Dillon &lt;(email redacted)&gt; wrote:

From: Dillon &lt;(email redacted)&gt;
Subject: turbo a motor with less than perfect compression?
To: "miatapower List" &lt;(email redacted)&gt;
Date: Tuesday, June 10, 2008, 2:21 AM


I've posted on and off about my engine "troubles" so I apologize if any of this is repeated.

I have a 99 10AE that just tipped 70k miles.&nbsp; I'm planning to add a turbo (specific kit / parts not yet determined) with a Megasquirt ECU for engine management.&nbsp; I plan to start at around 5-6psi and upgrade from there.&nbsp; First step is to get the MS wired up and working, then I'd like to add the turbo.

However, before starting anything, I checked the compression on the motor and did a leakdown test that showed leaking around the rings.


Dry/hot Compression: 175 - 152 - 150 - 175
Wet/hot compression: 200 - 187 - 180 - 205
Leakdown: 25% - 35% - 35% - 10%I am not using any appreciable amount of oil now, and the car seems healthy (aside from the numbers).&nbsp; I was shopping for a replacement block, or a reputable shop to rebuild the bottom-end, but it's been suggested that I should just turbo the motor that I've got, and deal with the engine rebuild in the future.

Considering my low (initial) power goals, how much of a gamble is this?&nbsp; If I could squeak out 6-12 months on this motor before it started using lots of oil, I'd be a happy camper.&nbsp; What do you guys think?&nbsp; Any experiences boosting a motor with numbers like mine?
_______________________________________________
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(email redacted)
list.miatapower.net/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/miatapower

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Mail From: "Tim South" <(email redacted)>

Dillon,

What is your leakdown saying you should do? Your wet compression test =
indicates rings. That's alot of ring wear for 70k I think. Was your =
leakdown test hot or cold? If cold, repeat hot and listen for where the =
air is going.
----- Original Message -----=20
From: Dillon=20
To: miatapower List=20
Sent: Tuesday, June 10, 2008 1:21 AM
Subject: turbo a motor with less than perfect compression?


I've posted on and off about my engine "troubles" so I apologize if =
any of this is repeated.

I have a 99 10AE that just tipped 70k miles. I'm planning to add a =
turbo (specific kit / parts not yet determined) with a Megasquirt ECU =
for engine management. I plan to start at around 5-6psi and upgrade =
from there. First step is to get the MS wired up and working, then I'd =
like to add the turbo.

However, before starting anything, I checked the compression on the =
motor and did a leakdown test that showed leaking around the rings.

a.. Dry/hot Compression: 175 - 152 - 150 - 175
b.. Wet/hot compression: 200 - 187 - 180 - 205
c.. Leakdown: 25% - 35% - 35% - 10%
I am not using any appreciable amount of oil now, and the car seems =
healthy (aside from the numbers). I was shopping for a replacement =
block, or a reputable shop to rebuild the bottom-end, but it's been =
suggested that I should just turbo the motor that I've got, and deal =
with the engine rebuild in the future.

Considering my low (initial) power goals, how much of a gamble is =
this? If I could squeak out 6-12 months on this motor before it started =
using lots of oil, I'd be a happy camper. What do you guys think? Any =
experiences boosting a motor with numbers like mine?



-------------------------------------------------------------------------=
-----


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Mail From: "Bill Cardell" <(email redacted)>

I'm with Tim. Make sure the engine is warm. Something else I've seen is
dislodged carbon from the plug threads throwing off comp tests. On a
good hot engine, redo both tests. Also, how much oil did you put in? Too
much and you're just reducing chamber volume, which will push numbers
way up. Also, as Tim said, where is the air leaking from on the
leakdown? That is the utility of the leakdown test, it tells you "what"
is bad. The bad thing is that no test I'm aware of will tell you
anything about oil ring condition, but you say you're not using oil.
=20
=20

Bill Cardell=20
TurboDog's Dad=20
www.flyinmiata.com=20
www.fmwestfield.com=20
orders 1-800-FLY-MX5S=20
tech support 970-464-5600=20
Don't miss Flyin' Miata's Open House! Aug 14-17, 2008=20

=20

________________________________

From: (email redacted)
[mailto:(email redacted)] On Behalf Of Tim South
Sent: Tuesday, June 10, 2008 5:01 AM
To: Dillon; miatapower List
Subject: Re: turbo a motor with less than perfect compression?


Dillon,
=20
What is your leakdown saying you should do? Your wet compression test
indicates rings. That's alot of ring wear for 70k I think. Was your
leakdown test hot or cold? If cold, repeat hot and listen for where the
air is going.

----- Original Message -----=20
From: Dillon <mailto:(email redacted)> =20
To: miatapower List <mailto:(email redacted)> =20
Sent: Tuesday, June 10, 2008 1:21 AM
Subject: turbo a motor with less than perfect compression?

I've posted on and off about my engine "troubles" so I apologize
if any of this is repeated.
=09
I have a 99 10AE that just tipped 70k miles. I'm planning to
add a turbo (specific kit / parts not yet determined) with a Megasquirt
ECU for engine management. I plan to start at around 5-6psi and upgrade
from there. First step is to get the MS wired up and working, then I'd
like to add the turbo.
=09
However, before starting anything, I checked the compression on
the motor and did a leakdown test that showed leaking around the rings.
=09

* Dry/hot Compression: 175 - 152 - 150 - 175=20
* Wet/hot compression: 200 - 187 - 180 - 205=20
* Leakdown: 25% - 35% - 35% - 10%

I am not using any appreciable amount of oil now, and the car
seems healthy (aside from the numbers). I was shopping for a
replacement block, or a reputable shop to rebuild the bottom-end, but
it's been suggested that I should just turbo the motor that I've got,
and deal with the engine rebuild in the future.
=09
Considering my low (initial) power goals, how much of a gamble
is this? If I could squeak out 6-12 months on this motor before it
started using lots of oil, I'd be a happy camper. What do you guys
think? Any experiences boosting a motor with numbers like mine?
=09

=09
________________________________


=09

_______________________________________________
Miatapower mailing list
(email redacted)
list.miatapower.net/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/miatapower
=09

This read-only message was archived from a public mail list.
Mail From: Dillon <(email redacted)>

Hi guys,

Thanks for all the input. I can't answer the detailed questions too
definitively. I moved into a smaller apartment last year and don't have
access to the tools myself (incredibly frustrating). Coop (of Coop's Miata)
near Seattle did the tests while he had my car for a roll-bar install.

I witnessed the compression test but not the leakdown test. As for how much
oil, it wasn't too much as I recall, maybe a few teaspoons per cylinder?

As for the leakdown test, I can't say for sure if the motor was hot or
cold. I could ask but I doubt Coop would remember my specific car since
this was a few months ago. I would assume it was hot, as that seems to be
the thing to do, and Coop is experienced at these things.

He said he could hear the air whistling and that it was definitely rings,
but I don't recall if he said he heard the air at the exhaust, or the
crankcase. I am assuming the crankcase.

Does any of this add up?

On Tue, Jun 10, 2008 at 6:59 AM, Bill Cardell <(email redacted)> wrote:

> I'm with Tim. Make sure the engine is warm. Something else I've seen is
> dislodged carbon from the plug threads throwing off comp tests. On a good
> hot engine, redo both tests. Also, how much oil did you put in? Too much and
> you're just reducing chamber volume, which will push numbers way up. Also,
> as Tim said, where is the air leaking from on the leakdown? That is the
> utility of the leakdown test, it tells you "what" is bad. The bad thing is
> that no test I'm aware of will tell you anything about oil ring condition,
> but you say you're not using oil.
>
>

This read-only message was archived from a public mail list.
Mail From: Bryan Wyatt <(email redacted)>

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I still don't understand the idea of running more air through an engine that is showing signs of weakness.&nbsp; It still seems like if you're that concerned about the engine (and the possibility of a rebuild) that you should spend the money to get a darn near perfect running engine, *then* spend more money to boost it.&nbsp; Your power level would be higher and you'd be happier because you're not sitting around worrying about the thing blowing up on you.

-Bryan

--- On Tue, 6/10/08, Dillon &lt;(email redacted)&gt; wrote:
From: Dillon &lt;(email redacted)&gt;
Subject: Re: turbo a motor with less than perfect compression?
To: "Bill Cardell" &lt;(email redacted)&gt;
Cc: "miatapower List" &lt;(email redacted)&gt;
Date: Tuesday, June 10, 2008, 1:50 PM

Hi guys,

Thanks for all the input.&nbsp; I can't answer the detailed questions too definitively.&nbsp; I moved into a smaller apartment last year and don't have access to the tools myself (incredibly frustrating).&nbsp; Coop (of Coop's Miata) near Seattle did the tests while he had my car for a roll-bar install.


I witnessed the compression test but not the leakdown test.&nbsp; As for how much oil, it wasn't too much as I recall, maybe a few teaspoons per cylinder?&nbsp;

As for the leakdown test, I can't say for sure if the motor was hot or cold.&nbsp; I could ask but I doubt Coop would remember my specific car since this was a few months ago.&nbsp; I would assume it was hot, as that seems to be the thing to do, and Coop is experienced at these things.


He said he could hear the air whistling and that it was definitely rings, but I don't recall if he said he heard the air at the exhaust, or the crankcase.&nbsp; I am assuming the crankcase.

Does any of this add up?&nbsp;


On Tue, Jun 10, 2008 at 6:59 AM, Bill Cardell &lt;(email redacted)&gt; wrote:








I'm with Tim. Make sure the engine is warm. Something else I've
seen is dislodged carbon from the plug threads throwing off comp tests. On a
good hot engine, redo both tests. Also, how much oil did you put in? Too much
and you're just reducing chamber volume, which will push numbers way up. Also,
as Tim said, where is the air leaking from on the leakdown? That is the utility
of the leakdown test, it tells you "what" is bad. The bad thing is that no test
I'm aware of will tell you anything about oil ring condition, but you say you're
not using oil.



_______________________________________________
Miatapower mailing list
(email redacted)
list.miatapower.net/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/miatapower

This read-only message was archived from a public mail list.
Mail From: Dillon <(email redacted)>

I'm not the sort to worry. Why rebuild now when I can rebuild later?

(serious - that is the question I'm looking to answer)

- Dillon

On Tue, Jun 10, 2008 at 10:56 AM, Bryan Wyatt <(email redacted)> wrote:

> Correct me if I'm wrong, but I still don't understand the idea of running
> more air through an engine that is showing signs of weakness. It still
> seems like if you're that concerned about the engine (and the possibility of
> a rebuild) that you should spend the money to get a darn near perfect
> running engine, *then* spend more money to boost it. Your power level would
> be higher and you'd be happier because you're not sitting around worrying
> about the thing blowing up on you.
>
> -Bryan
>
>
> --- On *Tue, 6/10/08, Dillon <(email redacted)>* wrote:
>
> From: Dillon <(email redacted)>
> Subject: Re: turbo a motor with less than perfect compression?
> To: "Bill Cardell" <(email redacted)>
> Cc: "miatapower List" <(email redacted)>
> Date: Tuesday, June 10, 2008, 1:50 PM
>
>
> Hi guys,
>
> Thanks for all the input. I can't answer the detailed questions too
> definitively. I moved into a smaller apartment last year and don't have
> access to the tools myself (incredibly frustrating). Coop (of Coop's Miata)
> near Seattle did the tests while he had my car for a roll-bar install.
>
> I witnessed the compression test but not the leakdown test. As for how
> much oil, it wasn't too much as I recall, maybe a few teaspoons per
> cylinder?
>
> As for the leakdown test, I can't say for sure if the motor was hot or
> cold. I could ask but I doubt Coop would remember my specific car since
> this was a few months ago. I would assume it was hot, as that seems to be
> the thing to do, and Coop is experienced at these things.
>
> He said he could hear the air whistling and that it was definitely rings,
> but I don't recall if he said he heard the air at the exhaust, or the
> crankcase. I am assuming the crankcase.
>
> Does any of this add up?
>
> On Tue, Jun 10, 2008 at 6:59 AM, Bill Cardell <(email redacted)> wrote:
>
>> I'm with Tim. Make sure the engine is warm. Something else I've seen is
>> dislodged carbon from the plug threads throwing off comp tests. On a good
>> hot engine, redo both tests. Also, how much oil did you put in? Too much and
>> you're just reducing chamber volume, which will push numbers way up. Also,
>> as Tim said, where is the air leaking from on the leakdown? That is the
>> utility of the leakdown test, it tells you "what" is bad. The bad thing is
>> that no test I'm aware of will tell you anything about oil ring condition,
>> but you say you're not using oil.
>>
>>
> _______________________________________________
> Miatapower mailing list
> (email redacted)
> list.miatapower.net/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/miatapower
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Miatapower mailing list
> (email redacted)
> list.miatapower.net/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/miatapower
>
>

This read-only message was archived from a public mail list.
Mail From: Ashraf Farrag <(email redacted)>

I'll second Bryan's recommendation of rebuild then turbo.

If you turbo then rebuild, you will probably end up tuning the car's ECU
twice. Do you want to spend the money and time on that twice? You
could also couple the installation of the turbo kit with the engine
rebuild and save on doing some of that stuff twice. Personally, I hate
doing stuff twice especially when I had the foresight (but ignored it)
to avoid it.

I wish I had put a known good engine in my turbo car while it was down
and I was working on building it back up, as it is now dead again due to
most likely, a spun bearing.

Unfortunately, I'm effectively forced to repeat my "mistake" on my RX-7
project (using a motor of dubious disposition as a placeholder) but am
actively planning on swapping in a rebuilt motor as soon as I fabricate
all the ancillaries and see that they run "okay". Breaking in a rebuilt
motor in AND having custom-fabricated stuff to sort out (that's the main
project, the custom fab) violates the "changing too many things at once"
rule a little too much for even me to handle.

Regards,
--Ashraf

This read-only message was archived from a public mail list.
Mail From: "Bill Cardell" <(email redacted)>

I guess my thought is those are awfully bad numbers for an engine that
is running well and not burning oil. If the car idles smoothly and pulls
good vacuum, I'm not buying those leakdown numbers. It doesn't add up.
Unless I misunderstood and it actually runs like crap. Not saying
anything against Coop, maybe carbon dropped in from taking the plugs out
or something.
=20

Bill Cardell=20
TurboDog's Dad=20
www.flyinmiata.com=20
www.fmwestfield.com=20
Sales 1-800-359-6957=20
Tech 970-464-5600 Before you call, check out
flyinmiata.com/FAQ/=20
Come to our Open House! August 14-17=20

=20

________________________________

From: (email redacted)
[mailto:(email redacted)] On Behalf Of Dillon
Sent: Tuesday, June 10, 2008 12:02 PM
To: (email redacted)
Cc: miatapower List
Subject: Re: turbo a motor with less than perfect compression?


I'm not the sort to worry. Why rebuild now when I can rebuild later?

(serious - that is the question I'm looking to answer)

- Dillon


On Tue, Jun 10, 2008 at 10:56 AM, Bryan Wyatt <(email redacted)>
wrote:


Correct me if I'm wrong, but I still don't understand the idea of
running more air through an engine that is showing signs of weakness.
It still seems like if you're that concerned about the engine (and the
possibility of a rebuild) that you should spend the money to get a darn
near perfect running engine, *then* spend more money to boost it. Your
power level would be higher and you'd be happier because you're not
sitting around worrying about the thing blowing up on you.=20


-Bryan


--- On Tue, 6/10/08, Dillon <(email redacted)> wrote:


From: Dillon <(email redacted)>
=09
Subject: Re: turbo a motor with less than perfect compression?
=09
To: "Bill Cardell" <(email redacted)>
Cc: "miatapower List" <(email redacted)>
Date: Tuesday, June 10, 2008, 1:50 PM=20


Hi guys,
=09
Thanks for all the input. I can't answer the detailed questions
too definitively. I moved into a smaller apartment last year and don't
have access to the tools myself (incredibly frustrating). Coop (of
Coop's Miata) near Seattle did the tests while he had my car for a
roll-bar install.
=09
I witnessed the compression test but not the leakdown test. As
for how much oil, it wasn't too much as I recall, maybe a few teaspoons
per cylinder? =20
=09
As for the leakdown test, I can't say for sure if the motor was
hot or cold. I could ask but I doubt Coop would remember my specific
car since this was a few months ago. I would assume it was hot, as that
seems to be the thing to do, and Coop is experienced at these things.
=09
He said he could hear the air whistling and that it was
definitely rings, but I don't recall if he said he heard the air at the
exhaust, or the crankcase. I am assuming the crankcase.
=09
Does any of this add up? =20
=09
=09
On Tue, Jun 10, 2008 at 6:59 AM, Bill Cardell
<(email redacted)> wrote:
=09

I'm with Tim. Make sure the engine is warm. Something
else I've seen is dislodged carbon from the plug threads throwing off
comp tests. On a good hot engine, redo both tests. Also, how much oil
did you put in? Too much and you're just reducing chamber volume, which
will push numbers way up. Also, as Tim said, where is the air leaking
from on the leakdown? That is the utility of the leakdown test, it tells
you "what" is bad. The bad thing is that no test I'm aware of will tell
you anything about oil ring condition, but you say you're not using oil.
=09
=09


_______________________________________________
Miatapower mailing list
(email redacted)
list.miatapower.net/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/miatapower



_______________________________________________
Miatapower mailing list
(email redacted)
list.miatapower.net/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/miatapower
=09
=09

This read-only message was archived from a public mail list.
Mail From: Bryan Wyatt <(email redacted)>

I should add that if the engine actually is healthy, boost away.&nbsp; What I didn't get is the advice--which I assume was Coop's--that, "hey you've got a crappy motor--boost it now and rebuild later!"&nbsp; If the motor's not crappy as Bill is pointing out, then it all makes more sense.

-Bryan

--- On Tue, 6/10/08, Bill Cardell &lt;(email redacted)&gt; wrote:
From: Bill Cardell &lt;(email redacted)&gt;
Subject: RE: turbo a motor with less than perfect compression?
To: "Dillon" &lt;(email redacted)&gt;, (email redacted)
Cc: "miatapower List" &lt;(email redacted)&gt;
Date: Tuesday, June 10, 2008, 2:17 PM




I guess my thought is those are awfully bad numbers for an
engine that is running well and not burning oil. If the car idles smoothly and
pulls good vacuum, I'm not buying those leakdown numbers. It doesn't add up.
Unless I misunderstood and it actually runs like crap. Not saying anything
against Coop, maybe carbon dropped in from taking the plugs out or
something.
&nbsp;
Bill Cardell
TurboDog's Dad
www.flyinmiata.com
www.fmwestfield.com
Sales 1-800-359-6957
Tech 970-464-5600 Before you call, check out
flyinmiata.com/FAQ/

Come to our Open House! August
14-17
&nbsp;



From: (email redacted)
[mailto:(email redacted)] On Behalf Of
Dillon
Sent: Tuesday, June 10, 2008 12:02 PM
To:
(email redacted)
Cc: miatapower List
Subject: Re: turbo
a motor with less than perfect compression?


I'm not the sort to worry.&nbsp; Why rebuild now when I can rebuild
later?

(serious - that is the question I'm looking to answer)

-
Dillon


On Tue, Jun 10, 2008 at 10:56 AM, Bryan Wyatt &lt;(email redacted)&gt; wrote:





Correct me if I'm wrong, but I still don't understand the
idea of running more air through an engine that is showing signs of
weakness.&nbsp; It still seems like if you're that concerned about the
engine (and the possibility of a rebuild) that you should spend the
money to get a darn near perfect running engine, *then* spend more money
to boost it.&nbsp; Your power level would be higher and you'd be happier
because you're not sitting around worrying about the thing blowing up on
you.





-Bryan

--- On Tue, 6/10/08, Dillon
&lt;(email redacted)&gt; wrote:


From: Dillon &lt;(email redacted)&gt;

Subject: Re: turbo a motor with less than perfect
compression?
To: "Bill Cardell" &lt;(email redacted)&gt;
Cc: "miatapower List"
&lt;(email redacted)&gt;
Date: Tuesday, June
10, 2008, 1:50 PM





Hi guys,

Thanks for all the input.&nbsp; I can't answer
the detailed questions too definitively.&nbsp; I moved into a smaller
apartment last year and don't have access to the tools myself
(incredibly frustrating).&nbsp; Coop (of Coop's Miata) near Seattle
did the tests while he had my car for a roll-bar install.

I
witnessed the compression test but not the leakdown test.&nbsp; As for
how much oil, it wasn't too much as I recall, maybe a few teaspoons
per cylinder?&nbsp;

As for the leakdown test, I can't say for
sure if the motor was hot or cold.&nbsp; I could ask but I doubt Coop
would remember my specific car since this was a few months ago.&nbsp;
I would assume it was hot, as that seems to be the thing to do, and
Coop is experienced at these things.

He said he could hear the
air whistling and that it was definitely rings, but I don't recall if
he said he heard the air at the exhaust, or the crankcase.&nbsp; I am
assuming the crankcase.

Does any of this add up?&nbsp;


On Tue, Jun 10, 2008 at 6:59 AM, Bill Cardell
&lt;(email redacted)&gt; wrote:



I'm
with Tim. Make sure the engine is warm. Something else I've seen is
dislodged carbon from the plug threads throwing off comp tests. On a
good hot engine, redo both tests. Also, how much oil did you put in?
Too much and you're just reducing chamber volume, which will push
numbers way up. Also, as Tim said, where is the air leaking from on
the leakdown? That is the utility of the leakdown test, it tells you
"what" is bad. The bad thing is that no test I'm aware of will tell
you anything about oil ring condition, but you say you're not using
oil.



_______________________________________________
Miatapower mailing list
(email redacted)
list.miatapower.net/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/miatapower

_______________________________________________
Miatapower
mailing list
(email redacted)
list.miatapower.net/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/miatapower

This read-only message was archived from a public mail list.
Mail From: "Bill Cardell" <(email redacted)>

We get customers asking the question "I have a high mileage (140k up)
engine, should I rebuild first or just turbo?" I usually recommend just
running as-is, if it's healthy it'll still go another 100k if not
drastically abused.
=20

Bill Cardell=20
TurboDog's Dad=20
www.flyinmiata.com=20
www.fmwestfield.com=20
Sales 1-800-359-6957=20
Tech 970-464-5600 Before you call, check out
flyinmiata.com/FAQ/=20
Come to our Open House! August 14-17=20

=20

________________________________

From: (email redacted)
[mailto:(email redacted)] On Behalf Of Bryan Wyatt
Sent: Tuesday, June 10, 2008 12:21 PM
To: miatapower List
Subject: RE: turbo a motor with less than perfect compression?


I should add that if the engine actually is healthy, boost away. What I
didn't get is the advice--which I assume was Coop's--that, "hey you've
got a crappy motor--boost it now and rebuild later!" If the motor's not
crappy as Bill is pointing out, then it all makes more sense.

-Bryan

--- On Tue, 6/10/08, Bill Cardell <(email redacted)> wrote:


From: Bill Cardell <(email redacted)>
Subject: RE: turbo a motor with less than perfect compression?
To: "Dillon" <(email redacted)>, (email redacted)
Cc: "miatapower List" <(email redacted)>
Date: Tuesday, June 10, 2008, 2:17 PM
=09
=09
I guess my thought is those are awfully bad numbers for an
engine that is running well and not burning oil. If the car idles
smoothly and pulls good vacuum, I'm not buying those leakdown numbers.
It doesn't add up. Unless I misunderstood and it actually runs like
crap. Not saying anything against Coop, maybe carbon dropped in from
taking the plugs out or something.
=20

Bill Cardell=20
TurboDog's Dad=20
www.flyinmiata.com=20
www.fmwestfield.com=20
Sales 1-800-359-6957=20
Tech 970-464-5600 Before you call, check out
flyinmiata.com/FAQ/=20
Come to our Open House! August 14-17=20

=20

________________________________

From: (email redacted)
[mailto:(email redacted)] On Behalf Of Dillon
Sent: Tuesday, June 10, 2008 12:02 PM
To: (email redacted)
Cc: miatapower List
Subject: Re: turbo a motor with less than perfect compression?
=09
=09
I'm not the sort to worry. Why rebuild now when I can rebuild
later?
=09
(serious - that is the question I'm looking to answer)
=09
- Dillon
=09
=09
On Tue, Jun 10, 2008 at 10:56 AM, Bryan Wyatt
<(email redacted)> wrote:
=09

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I still don't understand the idea of
running more air through an engine that is showing signs of weakness.
It still seems like if you're that concerned about the engine (and the
possibility of a rebuild) that you should spend the money to get a darn
near perfect running engine, *then* spend more money to boost it. Your
power level would be higher and you'd be happier because you're not
sitting around worrying about the thing blowing up on you.=20


-Bryan


--- On Tue, 6/10/08, Dillon <(email redacted)> wrote:


From: Dillon <(email redacted)>
=09
Subject: Re: turbo a motor with less than perfect compression?
=09
To: "Bill Cardell" <(email redacted)>
Cc: "miatapower List" <(email redacted)>
Date: Tuesday, June 10, 2008, 1:50 PM=20


Hi guys,
=09
Thanks for all the input. I can't answer the detailed questions
too definitively. I moved into a smaller apartment last year and don't
have access to the tools myself (incredibly frustrating). Coop (of
Coop's Miata) near Seattle did the tests while he had my car for a
roll-bar install.
=09
I witnessed the compression test but not the leakdown test. As
for how much oil, it wasn't too much as I recall, maybe a few teaspoons
per cylinder? =20
=09
As for the leakdown test, I can't say for sure if the motor was
hot or cold. I could ask but I doubt Coop would remember my specific
car since this was a few months ago. I would assume it was hot, as that
seems to be the thing to do, and Coop is experienced at these things.
=09
He said he could hear the air whistling and that it was
definitely rings, but I don't recall if he said he heard the air at the
exhaust, or the crankcase. I am assuming the crankcase.
=09
Does any of this add up? =20
=09
=09
On Tue, Jun 10, 2008 at 6:59 AM, Bill Cardell
<(email redacted)> wrote:
=09

I'm with Tim. Make sure the engine is warm. Something
else I've seen is dislodged carbon from the plug threads throwing off
comp tests. On a good hot engine, redo both tests. Also, how much oil
did you put in? Too much and you're just reducing chamber volume, which
will push numbers way up. Also, as Tim said, where is the air leaking
from on the leakdown? That is the utility of the leakdown test, it tells
you "what" is bad. The bad thing is that no test I'm aware of will tell
you anything about oil ring condition, but you say you're not using oil.
=09
=09


_______________________________________________
Miatapower mailing list
(email redacted)
list.miatapower.net/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/miatapower



_______________________________________________
Miatapower mailing list
(email redacted)
=09
list.miatapower.net/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/miatapower
=09
=09

This read-only message was archived from a public mail list.
Mail From: Bryan Wyatt <(email redacted)>

True...I was assuming the point of view that the engine is deficient (as opposed to just high mileage).&nbsp; Those things are different in my mind.

-Bryan

--- On Tue, 6/10/08, Bill Cardell &lt;(email redacted)&gt; wrote:
From: Bill Cardell &lt;(email redacted)&gt;
Subject: RE: turbo a motor with less than perfect compression?
To: (email redacted), "miatapower List" &lt;(email redacted)&gt;
Date: Tuesday, June 10, 2008, 2:23 PM




We get customers asking the question "I have a high mileage
(140k up) engine, should I rebuild first or just turbo?" I usually recommend
just running as-is, if it's healthy it'll still go another 100k if not
drastically abused.
&nbsp;
Bill Cardell
TurboDog's Dad
www.flyinmiata.com
www.fmwestfield.com
Sales 1-800-359-6957
Tech 970-464-5600 Before you call, check out
flyinmiata.com/FAQ/

Come to our Open House! August
14-17
&nbsp;



From: (email redacted)
[mailto:(email redacted)] On Behalf Of Bryan
Wyatt
Sent: Tuesday, June 10, 2008 12:21 PM
To: miatapower
List
Subject: RE: turbo a motor with less than perfect
compression?






I should add that if the engine actually is healthy, boost
away.&nbsp; What I didn't get is the advice--which I assume was
Coop's--that, "hey you've got a crappy motor--boost it now and rebuild
later!"&nbsp; If the motor's not crappy as Bill is pointing out, then it
all makes more sense.

-Bryan

--- On Tue, 6/10/08, Bill
Cardell &lt;(email redacted)&gt; wrote:

From:
Bill Cardell &lt;(email redacted)&gt;
Subject: RE: turbo a motor
with less than perfect compression?
To: "Dillon"
&lt;(email redacted)&gt;, (email redacted)
Cc: "miatapower
List" &lt;(email redacted)&gt;
Date: Tuesday, June 10, 2008,
2:17 PM



I guess my thought is those are awfully bad numbers
for an engine that is running well and not burning oil. If the car idles
smoothly and pulls good vacuum, I'm not buying those leakdown numbers.
It doesn't add up. Unless I misunderstood and it actually runs like
crap. Not saying anything against Coop, maybe carbon dropped in from
taking the plugs out or something.
&nbsp;
Bill Cardell

TurboDog's
Dad
www.flyinmiata.com
www.fmwestfield.com
Sales 1-800-359-6957

Tech 970-464-5600 Before
you call, check out flyinmiata.com/FAQ/
Come to our Open House! August
14-17
&nbsp;



From: (email redacted)
[mailto:(email redacted)] On Behalf Of
Dillon
Sent: Tuesday, June 10, 2008 12:02 PM
To:
(email redacted)
Cc: miatapower List
Subject:
Re: turbo a motor with less than perfect
compression?


I'm not the sort to worry.&nbsp; Why rebuild now when I can
rebuild later?

(serious - that is the question I'm looking to
answer)

- Dillon


On Tue, Jun 10, 2008 at 10:56 AM, Bryan Wyatt
&lt;(email redacted)&gt; wrote:





Correct me if I'm wrong, but I still don't understand
the idea of running more air through an engine that is showing
signs of weakness.&nbsp; It still seems like if you're that
concerned about the engine (and the possibility of a rebuild)
that you should spend the money to get a darn near perfect
running engine, *then* spend more money to boost it.&nbsp; Your
power level would be higher and you'd be happier because you're
not sitting around worrying about the thing blowing up on you.





-Bryan

--- On Tue, 6/10/08,
Dillon &lt;(email redacted)&gt;
wrote:


From: Dillon &lt;(email redacted)&gt;

Subject: Re: turbo a motor with less than
perfect compression?
To: "Bill Cardell" &lt;(email redacted)&gt;
Cc: "miatapower
List" &lt;(email redacted)&gt;
Date:
Tuesday, June 10, 2008, 1:50 PM





Hi guys,

Thanks for all the input.&nbsp; I can't
answer the detailed questions too definitively.&nbsp; I moved
into a smaller apartment last year and don't have access to
the tools myself (incredibly frustrating).&nbsp; Coop (of
Coop's Miata) near Seattle did the tests while he had my car
for a roll-bar install.

I witnessed the compression
test but not the leakdown test.&nbsp; As for how much oil, it
wasn't too much as I recall, maybe a few teaspoons per
cylinder?&nbsp;

As for the leakdown test, I can't say
for sure if the motor was hot or cold.&nbsp; I could ask but I
doubt Coop would remember my specific car since this was a few
months ago.&nbsp; I would assume it was hot, as that seems to
be the thing to do, and Coop is experienced at these
things.

He said he could hear the air whistling and
that it was definitely rings, but I don't recall if he said he
heard the air at the exhaust, or the crankcase.&nbsp; I am
assuming the crankcase.

Does any of this add up?&nbsp;



On Tue, Jun 10, 2008 at 6:59 AM, Bill
Cardell &lt;(email redacted)&gt; wrote:



I'm with Tim. Make sure the engine is warm.
Something else I've seen is dislodged carbon from the plug
threads throwing off comp tests. On a good hot engine, redo
both tests. Also, how much oil did you put in? Too much and
you're just reducing chamber volume, which will push numbers
way up. Also, as Tim said, where is the air leaking from on
the leakdown? That is the utility of the leakdown test, it
tells you "what" is bad. The bad thing is that no test I'm
aware of will tell you anything about oil ring condition,
but you say you're not using oil.



_______________________________________________
Miatapower mailing list
(email redacted)
list.miatapower.net/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/miatapower

_______________________________________________
Miatapower
mailing list
(email redacted)
list.miatapower.net/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/miatapower

This read-only message was archived from a public mail list.
Mail From: "Marek Jedrzejewicz" <(email redacted)>

I would agree. Unless there is something really wrong, then an engine with
lower-than-normal compression numbers should not be significantly more prone
to a catastrophic failure than one with high numbers, it will just have a
lower VE.



I do also agree with the sentiment about doing it right the first time. The
problem is that things are not always equal. If it is me that is tuning the
engine, then I am just as likely to do something stupid on an old crappy
motor than a new shiny expensive one. The consequences are obvious. BUT, I
am less likely to blow up the new shiny expensive engine after I learned on
the old one. So I guess it depends on your goals, I consider my current
stock motor somewhat disposable, and my long term goals are to have a shiny
new one installed.



Some boost on a marginal motor beats no boost on a marginal motorJ



Marek







From: (email redacted)
[mailto:(email redacted)] On Behalf Of Bill Cardell
Sent: Tuesday, June 10, 2008 11:23 AM
To: (email redacted); miatapower List
Subject: RE: turbo a motor with less than perfect compression?



We get customers asking the question "I have a high mileage (140k up)
engine, should I rebuild first or just turbo?" I usually recommend just
running as-is, if it's healthy it'll still go another 100k if not
drastically abused.



Bill Cardell
TurboDog's Dad
www.flyinmiata.com
www.fmwestfield.com
Sales 1-800-359-6957
Tech 970-464-5600 Before you call, check out flyinmiata.com/FAQ/
Come to our Open House! August 14-17





_____

From: (email redacted)
[mailto:(email redacted)] On Behalf Of Bryan Wyatt
Sent: Tuesday, June 10, 2008 12:21 PM
To: miatapower List
Subject: RE: turbo a motor with less than perfect compression?


I should add that if the engine actually is healthy, boost away. What I
didn't get is the advice--which I assume was Coop's--that, "hey you've got a
crappy motor--boost it now and rebuild later!" If the motor's not crappy as
Bill is pointing out, then it all makes more sense.

-Bryan

--- On Tue, 6/10/08, Bill Cardell <(email redacted)> wrote:

From: Bill Cardell <(email redacted)>
Subject: RE: turbo a motor with less than perfect compression?
To: "Dillon" <(email redacted)>, (email redacted)
Cc: "miatapower List" <(email redacted)>
Date: Tuesday, June 10, 2008, 2:17 PM

I guess my thought is those are awfully bad numbers for an engine that is
running well and not burning oil. If the car idles smoothly and pulls good
vacuum, I'm not buying those leakdown numbers. It doesn't add up. Unless I
misunderstood and it actually runs like crap. Not saying anything against
Coop, maybe carbon dropped in from taking the plugs out or something.



Bill Cardell
TurboDog's Dad
www.flyinmiata.com
www.fmwestfield.com
Sales 1-800-359-6957
Tech 970-464-5600 Before you call, check out flyinmiata.com/FAQ/
Come to our Open House! August 14-17





_____

From: (email redacted)
[mailto:(email redacted)] On Behalf Of Dillon
Sent: Tuesday, June 10, 2008 12:02 PM
To: (email redacted)
Cc: miatapower List
Subject: Re: turbo a motor with less than perfect compression?

I'm not the sort to worry. Why rebuild now when I can rebuild later?

(serious - that is the question I'm looking to answer)

- Dillon

On Tue, Jun 10, 2008 at 10:56 AM, Bryan Wyatt <(email redacted)> wrote:


Correct me if I'm wrong, but I still don't understand the idea of running
more air through an engine that is showing signs of weakness. It still
seems like if you're that concerned about the engine (and the possibility of
a rebuild) that you should spend the money to get a darn near perfect
running engine, *then* spend more money to boost it. Your power level would
be higher and you'd be happier because you're not sitting around worrying
about the thing blowing up on you.



-Bryan



--- On Tue, 6/10/08, Dillon <(email redacted)> wrote:

From: Dillon <(email redacted)>

Subject: Re: turbo a motor with less than perfect compression?

To: "Bill Cardell" <(email redacted)>
Cc: "miatapower List" <(email redacted)>
Date: Tuesday, June 10, 2008, 1:50 PM



Hi guys,

Thanks for all the input. I can't answer the detailed questions too
definitively. I moved into a smaller apartment last year and don't have
access to the tools myself (incredibly frustrating). Coop (of Coop's Miata)
near Seattle did the tests while he had my car for a roll-bar install.

I witnessed the compression test but not the leakdown test. As for how much
oil, it wasn't too much as I recall, maybe a few teaspoons per cylinder?

As for the leakdown test, I can't say for sure if the motor was hot or cold.
I could ask but I doubt Coop would remember my specific car since this was a
few months ago. I would assume it was hot, as that seems to be the thing to
do, and Coop is experienced at these things.

He said he could hear the air whistling and that it was definitely rings,
but I don't recall if he said he heard the air at the exhaust, or the
crankcase. I am assuming the crankcase.

Does any of this add up?

On Tue, Jun 10, 2008 at 6:59 AM, Bill Cardell <(email redacted)> wrote:

I'm with Tim. Make sure the engine is warm. Something else I've seen is
dislodged carbon from the plug threads throwing off comp tests. On a good
hot engine, redo both tests. Also, how much oil did you put in? Too much and
you're just reducing chamber volume, which will push numbers way up. Also,
as Tim said, where is the air leaking from on the leakdown? That is the
utility of the leakdown test, it tells you "what" is bad. The bad thing is
that no test I'm aware of will tell you anything about oil ring condition,
but you say you're not using oil.





_______________________________________________


Miatapower mailing list


(email redacted)


list.miatapower.net/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/miatapower



_______________________________________________
Miatapower mailing list
(email redacted)
list.miatapower.net/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/miatapower

This read-only message was archived from a public mail list.
Mail From: Dillon <(email redacted)>

That was not Coop's advice. Coop's advice was to fix the motor before doing
anything else.

Of course, his goals (start from a known good motor so I don't come around
and bug him for service because his turbo install blew up my engine) are not
necessarily the same as mine (cheap, fast & reliable - I pick all 3).

The suggestion that my motor would probably do fine on low boost for a while
came from some folks on another mailing list.

I think what I am going to do is this:

- seafoam the motor
- buy or borrow a compression tester and test once more
- find someone with a leakdown gauge that is nearby (this is no offense
to Coop, I just don't want to drive all the way to Maple Valley for a
leakdown test) and try once more to see if I can confirm the numbers
- post the results back to the list one last time
- ignore all your advice, turbo my motor, and see how long it goes before
it blows ;)

I don't quite understand how the numbers are so bad when I'm not using any
noticeable amount of oil.

On Tue, Jun 10, 2008 at 11:20 AM, Bryan Wyatt <(email redacted)> wrote:

> I should add that if the engine actually is healthy, boost away. What I
> didn't get is the advice--which I assume was Coop's--that, "hey you've got a
> crappy motor--boost it now and rebuild later!" If the motor's not crappy as
> Bill is pointing out, then it all makes more sense.
>
> -Bryan
>
>

This read-only message was archived from a public mail list.
Mail From: "Bill Cardell" <(email redacted)>

simplest test is stick a vacuum gauge on it. If it's not healthy, it
won't pull good vacuum.
=20

TurboDog's Dad=20
Bill Cardell=20
www.flyinmiata.com=20
1-800-FLY-MX5S=20
970-464-5600 tech support=20
Don't miss our Open House! August 14-17=20

=20

________________________________

From: (email redacted)
[mailto:(email redacted)] On Behalf Of Dillon
Sent: Tuesday, June 10, 2008 2:49 PM
To: (email redacted)
Cc: miatapower List
Subject: Re: turbo a motor with less than perfect compression?


That was not Coop's advice. Coop's advice was to fix the motor before
doing anything else.

Of course, his goals (start from a known good motor so I don't come
around and bug him for service because his turbo install blew up my
engine) are not necessarily the same as mine (cheap, fast & reliable - I
pick all 3).

The suggestion that my motor would probably do fine on low boost for a
while came from some folks on another mailing list.

I think what I am going to do is this:


* seafoam the motor=20
* buy or borrow a compression tester and test once more
=09
* find someone with a leakdown gauge that is nearby (this is no
offense to Coop, I just don't want to drive all the way to Maple Valley
for a leakdown test) and try once more to see if I can confirm the
numbers=20
* post the results back to the list one last time=20
* ignore all your advice, turbo my motor, and see how long it goes
before it blows ;)
=09

I don't quite understand how the numbers are so bad when I'm not using
any noticeable amount of oil.


On Tue, Jun 10, 2008 at 11:20 AM, Bryan Wyatt <(email redacted)>
wrote:


I should add that if the engine actually is healthy, boost away. What I
didn't get is the advice--which I assume was Coop's--that, "hey you've
got a crappy motor--boost it now and rebuild later!" If the motor's not
crappy as Bill is pointing out, then it all makes more sense.

-Bryan

=09

This read-only message was archived from a public mail list.
Mail From: "Sam Sharp" <(email redacted)>

I don't think you have much to lose by turboing it now. You're willing to
rebuild or replace the engine later anyway, so why not take the gamble and
turbo now? If it doesn't work out you're in for the same rebuild anyway.
If it works out you've delayed the cost of the rebuild. That's what I'd
do.

Sam



On Tue, Jun 10, 2008 at 12:01 PM, Dillon <(email redacted)> wrote:

> I'm not the sort to worry. Why rebuild now when I can rebuild later?
>
> (serious - that is the question I'm looking to answer)
>
> - Dillon
>
>
> On Tue, Jun 10, 2008 at 10:56 AM, Bryan Wyatt <(email redacted)>
> wrote:
>
>> Correct me if I'm wrong, but I still don't understand the idea of
>> running more air through an engine that is showing signs of weakness. It
>> still seems like if you're that concerned about the engine (and the
>> possibility of a rebuild) that you should spend the money to get a darn near
>> perfect running engine, *then* spend more money to boost it. Your power
>> level would be higher and you'd be happier because you're not sitting around
>> worrying about the thing blowing up on you.
>>
>> -Bryan
>>
>>
>> --- On *Tue, 6/10/08, Dillon <(email redacted)>* wrote:
>>
>> From: Dillon <(email redacted)>
>> Subject: Re: turbo a motor with less than perfect compression?
>> To: "Bill Cardell" <(email redacted)>
>> Cc: "miatapower List" <(email redacted)>
>> Date: Tuesday, June 10, 2008, 1:50 PM
>>
>>
>> Hi guys,
>>
>> Thanks for all the input. I can't answer the detailed questions too
>> definitively. I moved into a smaller apartment last year and don't have
>> access to the tools myself (incredibly frustrating). Coop (of Coop's Miata)
>> near Seattle did the tests while he had my car for a roll-bar install.
>>
>> I witnessed the compression test but not the leakdown test. As for how
>> much oil, it wasn't too much as I recall, maybe a few teaspoons per
>> cylinder?
>>
>> As for the leakdown test, I can't say for sure if the motor was hot or
>> cold. I could ask but I doubt Coop would remember my specific car since
>> this was a few months ago. I would assume it was hot, as that seems to be
>> the thing to do, and Coop is experienced at these things.
>>
>> He said he could hear the air whistling and that it was definitely rings,
>> but I don't recall if he said he heard the air at the exhaust, or the
>> crankcase. I am assuming the crankcase.
>>
>> Does any of this add up?
>>
>> On Tue, Jun 10, 2008 at 6:59 AM, Bill Cardell <(email redacted)>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> I'm with Tim. Make sure the engine is warm. Something else I've seen is
>>> dislodged carbon from the plug threads throwing off comp tests. On a good
>>> hot engine, redo both tests. Also, how much oil did you put in? Too much and
>>> you're just reducing chamber volume, which will push numbers way up. Also,
>>> as Tim said, where is the air leaking from on the leakdown? That is the
>>> utility of the leakdown test, it tells you "what" is bad. The bad thing is
>>> that no test I'm aware of will tell you anything about oil ring condition,
>>> but you say you're not using oil.
>>>
>>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Miatapower mailing list
>> (email redacted)
>> list.miatapower.net/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/miatapower
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Miatapower mailing list
>> (email redacted)
>> list.miatapower.net/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/miatapower
>>
>>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Miatapower mailing list
> (email redacted)
> list.miatapower.net/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/miatapower
>
>

This read-only message was archived from a public mail list.
Mail From: Dillon <(email redacted)>

Yeah, and I'm ok with that as long as I'm not likely to ruin the block or
make the rebuild really expensive.

On Tue, Jun 10, 2008 at 5:42 PM, Sam Sharp <(email redacted)> wrote:

> I don't think you have much to lose by turboing it now. You're willing to
> rebuild or replace the engine later anyway, so why not take the gamble and
> turbo now? If it doesn't work out you're in for the same rebuild anyway.
> If it works out you've delayed the cost of the rebuild. That's what I'd
> do.
>
> Sam
>
>
>
> On Tue, Jun 10, 2008 at 12:01 PM, Dillon <(email redacted)> wrote:
>
>> I'm not the sort to worry. Why rebuild now when I can rebuild later?
>>
>> (serious - that is the question I'm looking to answer)
>>
>> - Dillon
>>
>>
>> On Tue, Jun 10, 2008 at 10:56 AM, Bryan Wyatt <(email redacted)>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Correct me if I'm wrong, but I still don't understand the idea of
>>> running more air through an engine that is showing signs of weakness. It
>>> still seems like if you're that concerned about the engine (and the
>>> possibility of a rebuild) that you should spend the money to get a darn near
>>> perfect running engine, *then* spend more money to boost it. Your power
>>> level would be higher and you'd be happier because you're not sitting around
>>> worrying about the thing blowing up on you.
>>>
>>> -Bryan
>>>
>>>
>>> --- On *Tue, 6/10/08, Dillon <(email redacted)>* wrote:
>>>
>>> From: Dillon <(email redacted)>
>>> Subject: Re: turbo a motor with less than perfect compression?
>>> To: "Bill Cardell" <(email redacted)>
>>> Cc: "miatapower List" <(email redacted)>
>>> Date: Tuesday, June 10, 2008, 1:50 PM
>>>
>>>
>>> Hi guys,
>>>
>>> Thanks for all the input. I can't answer the detailed questions too
>>> definitively. I moved into a smaller apartment last year and don't have
>>> access to the tools myself (incredibly frustrating). Coop (of Coop's Miata)
>>> near Seattle did the tests while he had my car for a roll-bar install.
>>>
>>> I witnessed the compression test but not the leakdown test. As for how
>>> much oil, it wasn't too much as I recall, maybe a few teaspoons per
>>> cylinder?
>>>
>>> As for the leakdown test, I can't say for sure if the motor was hot or
>>> cold. I could ask but I doubt Coop would remember my specific car since
>>> this was a few months ago. I would assume it was hot, as that seems to be
>>> the thing to do, and Coop is experienced at these things.
>>>
>>> He said he could hear the air whistling and that it was definitely rings,
>>> but I don't recall if he said he heard the air at the exhaust, or the
>>> crankcase. I am assuming the crankcase.
>>>
>>> Does any of this add up?
>>>
>>> On Tue, Jun 10, 2008 at 6:59 AM, Bill Cardell <(email redacted)>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> I'm with Tim. Make sure the engine is warm. Something else I've seen
>>>> is dislodged carbon from the plug threads throwing off comp tests. On a good
>>>> hot engine, redo both tests. Also, how much oil did you put in? Too much and
>>>> you're just reducing chamber volume, which will push numbers way up. Also,
>>>> as Tim said, where is the air leaking from on the leakdown? That is the
>>>> utility of the leakdown test, it tells you "what" is bad. The bad thing is
>>>> that no test I'm aware of will tell you anything about oil ring condition,
>>>> but you say you're not using oil.
>>>>
>>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Miatapower mailing list
>>> (email redacted)
>>> list.miatapower.net/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/miatapower
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Miatapower mailing list
>>> (email redacted)
>>> list.miatapower.net/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/miatapower
>>>
>>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Miatapower mailing list
>> (email redacted)
>> list.miatapower.net/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/miatapower
>>
>>
>

This read-only message was archived from a public mail list.
Mail From: Robert M <(email redacted)>


Good vacuum=3D?

(Turbodog's dad sed: "simplest test is stick a vacuum gauge on it. If it's =
not healthy, it won't pull good vacuum."
=20
_________________________________________________________________
Enjoy 5 GB of free, password-protected online storage.
windowslive.com/skydrive/overview.html?ocid=3DTXT_TAGLM_WL_Refre=
sh_skydrive_062008=

This read-only message was archived from a public mail list.
Mail From: "Bill Cardell" <(email redacted)>

I'd be thrilled with 18" or more, or if using map, less than 35 kpa or
so. In the 20s is excellent. My numbers may be skewed by our high
altitude.
=20

Bill Cardell=20
TurboDog's Dad=20
www.flyinmiata.com=20
www.fmwestfield.com=20
orders 1-800-FLY-MX5S=20
tech support 970-464-5600=20
Don't miss Flyin' Miata's Open House! Aug 14-17, 2008=20

=20

________________________________

From: (email redacted)
[mailto:(email redacted)] On Behalf Of Robert M
Sent: Wednesday, June 11, 2008 5:06 PM
To: (email redacted)
Subject: RE: turbo a motor with less than perfect compression?


Good vacuum=3D?

(Turbodog's dad sed: "simplest test is stick a vacuum gauge on it. If
it's not healthy, it won't pull good vacuum."

=20

________________________________

Enjoy 5 GB of free, password-protected online storage. Get Windows Live
SkyDrive.
<windowslive.com/skydrive/overview.html?ocid=3DTXT_TAGLM_WL_Re=
f
resh_skydrive_062008> =20

This read-only message was archived from a public mail list.
Mail From: Robert M <(email redacted)>


Under what conditions? Idle? Normal drive? Coasting down from 70 with=
no throttle in 3rd? ;)

Subject: RE: turbo a motor with less than perfect compression?
Date: Wed, 11 Jun 2008 17:14:26 -0600
From: (email redacted)
To: (email redacted); (email redacted)










I'd be thrilled with 18" or more, or if using map, less=20
than 35 kpa or so. In the 20s is excellent. My numbers may be skewed by our=
high=20
altitude.
=20
Bill Cardell=20
TurboDog's Dad=20
www.flyinmiata.com=20
www.fmwestfield.com=20
orders 1-800-FLY-MX5S=20
tech support 970-464-5600=20

Don't miss Flyin' Miata's Open=20
House! Aug 14-17, 2008=20
=20



From: (email redacted)=20
[mailto:(email redacted)] On Behalf Of Robert=20
M
Sent: Wednesday, June 11, 2008 5:06 PM
To:=20
(email redacted)
Subject: RE: turbo a motor with less than=20
perfect compression?




Good vacuum=3D?

(Turbodog's dad sed: "simplest test is stick a=20
vacuum gauge on it. If it's not healthy, it won't pull good vacuum."
=20


Enjoy 5 GB of free, password-protected online storage. Get Windows Live Sky=
Drive.=20

_________________________________________________________________
Now you can invite friends from Facebook and other groups to join you on Wi=
ndows Live=99 Messenger. Add now.
https://www.invite2messenger.net/im/?source=3DTXT_EML_WLH_AddNow_Now=

This read-only message was archived from a public mail list.
Mail From: "Bill Cardell" <(email redacted)>

warm idle
=20

Bill Cardell=20
TurboDog's Dad=20
www.flyinmiata.com=20
www.fmwestfield.com=20
orders 1-800-FLY-MX5S=20
tech support 970-464-5600=20
Don't miss Flyin' Miata's Open House! Aug 14-17, 2008=20

=20

________________________________

From: Robert M [mailto:(email redacted)]=20
Sent: Wednesday, June 11, 2008 5:24 PM
To: Bill Cardell; (email redacted)
Subject: RE: turbo a motor with less than perfect compression?


Under what conditions? Idle? Normal drive? Coasting down from 70
with no throttle in 3rd? ;)



________________________________

Subject: RE: turbo a motor with less than perfect compression?
Date: Wed, 11 Jun 2008 17:14:26 -0600
From: (email redacted)
To: (email redacted); (email redacted)
=09
=09
I'd be thrilled with 18" or more, or if using map, less than 35
kpa or so. In the 20s is excellent. My numbers may be skewed by our high
altitude.
=20
Bill Cardell=20
TurboDog's Dad=20
www.flyinmiata.com=20
www.fmwestfield.com=20
orders 1-800-FLY-MX5S=20
tech support 970-464-5600=20
Don't miss Flyin' Miata's Open House! Aug 14-17, 2008=20
=09
=20

________________________________

From: (email redacted)
[mailto:(email redacted)] On Behalf Of Robert M
Sent: Wednesday, June 11, 2008 5:06 PM
To: (email redacted)
Subject: RE: turbo a motor with less than perfect compression?
=09
=09
Good vacuum=3D?
=09
(Turbodog's dad sed: "simplest test is stick a vacuum gauge on
it. If it's not healthy, it won't pull good vacuum."
=09
=20

________________________________

Enjoy 5 GB of free, password-protected online storage. Get
Windows Live SkyDrive.
<windowslive.com/skydrive/overview.html?ocid=3DTXT_TAGLM_WL_Re=
f
resh_skydrive_062008> =20


________________________________

Now you can invite friends from Facebook and other groups to join you on
Windows Live(tm) Messenger. Add them now!
https://www.invite2messenger.net/im/?source=3DTXT_EML_WLH_AddNow_Now =20

This read-only message was archived from a public mail list.
Mail From: Dillon <(email redacted)>

I can do this test with the same gauge I'd use to measure boost right? If
eventually I'd like to have that info available from the cockpit, I could
just buy a "boost gauge" and an A-pillar mount and measure vacuum that way
... two birds with one stone right?

The alternative being to hit up the local FLAPS and buy a cheapie vacuum
gauge ...

Is there a port somewhere on the intake manifold to connect to? Any
gotchyas or special procedures to follow?



On Tue, Jun 10, 2008 at 2:04 PM, Bill Cardell <(email redacted)> wrote:

> simplest test is stick a vacuum gauge on it. If it's not healthy, it
> won't pull good vacuum.
>
>
> TurboDog's Dad
> Bill Cardell
> www.flyinmiata.com
> 1-800-FLY-MX5S
> 970-464-5600 tech support
> Don't miss our Open House! August 14-17
>
>
> ------------------------------
> *From:* (email redacted) [mailto:
> (email redacted)] *On Behalf Of *Dillon
> *Sent:* Tuesday, June 10, 2008 2:49 PM
> *To:* (email redacted)
> *Cc:* miatapower List
> *Subject:* Re: turbo a motor with less than perfect compression?
>
> That was not Coop's advice. Coop's advice was to fix the motor before
> doing anything else.
>
> Of course, his goals (start from a known good motor so I don't come around
> and bug him for service because his turbo install blew up my engine) are not
> necessarily the same as mine (cheap, fast & reliable - I pick all 3).
>
> The suggestion that my motor would probably do fine on low boost for a
> while came from some folks on another mailing list.
>
> I think what I am going to do is this:
>
> - seafoam the motor
> - buy or borrow a compression tester and test once more
> - find someone with a leakdown gauge that is nearby (this is no offense
> to Coop, I just don't want to drive all the way to Maple Valley for a
> leakdown test) and try once more to see if I can confirm the numbers
> - post the results back to the list one last time
> - ignore all your advice, turbo my motor, and see how long it goes
> before it blows ;)
>
> I don't quite understand how the numbers are so bad when I'm not using any
> noticeable amount of oil.
>
> On Tue, Jun 10, 2008 at 11:20 AM, Bryan Wyatt <(email redacted)>
> wrote:
>
>> I should add that if the engine actually is healthy, boost away. What
>> I didn't get is the advice--which I assume was Coop's--that, "hey you've got
>> a crappy motor--boost it now and rebuild later!" If the motor's not crappy
>> as Bill is pointing out, then it all makes more sense.
>>
>> -Bryan
>>
>>
>

This read-only message was archived from a public mail list.
Mail From: "Bill Cardell" <(email redacted)>

Boost gauge would do fine. If you're getting one of our kits, just get
the gauge and mount ahead of time and get credited back when you take
the plunge. Plenty of ports on the manifold, might have to T in,
depending on whether you have cruise or not.
=20

Bill Cardell=20
TurboDog's Dad=20
www.flyinmiata.com=20
www.fmwestfield.com=20
orders 1-800-FLY-MX5S=20
tech support 970-464-5600=20
Don't miss Flyin' Miata's Open House! Aug 14-17, 2008=20

=20

________________________________

From: Dillon [mailto:(email redacted)]=20
Sent: Wednesday, June 11, 2008 6:08 PM
To: Bill Cardell
Cc: (email redacted); miatapower List
Subject: Re: turbo a motor with less than perfect compression?


I can do this test with the same gauge I'd use to measure boost right?
If eventually I'd like to have that info available from the cockpit, I
could just buy a "boost gauge" and an A-pillar mount and measure vacuum
that way ... two birds with one stone right?

The alternative being to hit up the local FLAPS and buy a cheapie vacuum
gauge ...

Is there a port somewhere on the intake manifold to connect to? Any
gotchyas or special procedures to follow?




On Tue, Jun 10, 2008 at 2:04 PM, Bill Cardell <(email redacted)>
wrote:


simplest test is stick a vacuum gauge on it. If it's not
healthy, it won't pull good vacuum.
=20

TurboDog's Dad=20
Bill Cardell=20
www.flyinmiata.com=20
1-800-FLY-MX5S=20
970-464-5600 tech support=20
Don't miss our Open House! August 14-17=20

=20

________________________________

=09
From: (email redacted)
[mailto:(email redacted)] On Behalf Of Dillon
=09
Sent: Tuesday, June 10, 2008 2:49 PM=20

To: (email redacted)
Cc: miatapower List
Subject: Re: turbo a motor with less than perfect compression?
=09

That was not Coop's advice. Coop's advice was to fix the motor
before doing anything else.
=09
Of course, his goals (start from a known good motor so I don't
come around and bug him for service because his turbo install blew up my
engine) are not necessarily the same as mine (cheap, fast & reliable - I
pick all 3).
=09
The suggestion that my motor would probably do fine on low boost
for a while came from some folks on another mailing list.
=09
I think what I am going to do is this:
=09

* seafoam the motor=20
* buy or borrow a compression tester and test once more
=09
* find someone with a leakdown gauge that is nearby (this
is no offense to Coop, I just don't want to drive all the way to Maple
Valley for a leakdown test) and try once more to see if I can confirm
the numbers=20
* post the results back to the list one last time=20
* ignore all your advice, turbo my motor, and see how long
it goes before it blows ;)
=09

I don't quite understand how the numbers are so bad when I'm not
using any noticeable amount of oil.
=09
=09
On Tue, Jun 10, 2008 at 11:20 AM, Bryan Wyatt
<(email redacted)> wrote:
=09

I should add that if the engine actually is healthy, boost away. What I
didn't get is the advice--which I assume was Coop's--that, "hey you've
got a crappy motor--boost it now and rebuild later!" If the motor's not
crappy as Bill is pointing out, then it all makes more sense.

-Bryan

=09

This read-only message was archived from a public mail list.
Mail From: Dillon <(email redacted)>

Good deal - I just placed the order (22168). My '99 does have cruise - I
assume I can find the T fittings without too much trouble.

Thanks again guys.

I'll report back once I've checked the vacuum.

On Wed, Jun 11, 2008 at 5:20 PM, Bill Cardell <(email redacted)> wrote:

> Boost gauge would do fine. If you're getting one of our kits, just get
> the gauge and mount ahead of time and get credited back when you take the
> plunge. Plenty of ports on the manifold, might have to T in, depending on
> whether you have cruise or not.
>
>
> Bill Cardell
> TurboDog's Dad
> www.flyinmiata.com
> www.fmwestfield.com
> orders 1-800-FLY-MX5S
> tech support 970-464-5600
> Don't miss Flyin' Miata's Open House! Aug 14-17, 2008
>
>
> ------------------------------
> *From:* Dillon [mailto:(email redacted)]
> *Sent:* Wednesday, June 11, 2008 6:08 PM
> *To:* Bill Cardell
> *Cc:* (email redacted); miatapower List
>
> *Subject:* Re: turbo a motor with less than perfect compression?
>
> I can do this test with the same gauge I'd use to measure boost right? If
> eventually I'd like to have that info available from the cockpit, I could
> just buy a "boost gauge" and an A-pillar mount and measure vacuum that way
> ... two birds with one stone right?
>
> The alternative being to hit up the local FLAPS and buy a cheapie vacuum
> gauge ...
>
> Is there a port somewhere on the intake manifold to connect to? Any
> gotchyas or special procedures to follow?
>
>
>
> On Tue, Jun 10, 2008 at 2:04 PM, Bill Cardell <(email redacted)> wrote:
>
>> simplest test is stick a vacuum gauge on it. If it's not healthy, it
>> won't pull good vacuum.
>>
>>
>> TurboDog's Dad
>> Bill Cardell
>> www.flyinmiata.com
>> 1-800-FLY-MX5S
>> 970-464-5600 tech support
>> Don't miss our Open House! August 14-17
>>
>>
>> ------------------------------
>> *From:* (email redacted) [mailto:
>> (email redacted)] *On Behalf Of *Dillon
>> *Sent:* Tuesday, June 10, 2008 2:49 PM
>> *To:* (email redacted)
>> *Cc:* miatapower List
>> *Subject:* Re: turbo a motor with less than perfect compression?
>>
>> That was not Coop's advice. Coop's advice was to fix the motor before
>> doing anything else.
>>
>> Of course, his goals (start from a known good motor so I don't come around
>> and bug him for service because his turbo install blew up my engine) are not
>> necessarily the same as mine (cheap, fast & reliable - I pick all 3).
>>
>> The suggestion that my motor would probably do fine on low boost for a
>> while came from some folks on another mailing list.
>>
>> I think what I am going to do is this:
>>
>> - seafoam the motor
>> - buy or borrow a compression tester and test once more
>> - find someone with a leakdown gauge that is nearby (this is no
>> offense to Coop, I just don't want to drive all the way to Maple Valley for
>> a leakdown test) and try once more to see if I can confirm the numbers
>> - post the results back to the list one last time
>> - ignore all your advice, turbo my motor, and see how long it goes
>> before it blows ;)
>>
>> I don't quite understand how the numbers are so bad when I'm not using any
>> noticeable amount of oil.
>>
>> On Tue, Jun 10, 2008 at 11:20 AM, Bryan Wyatt <(email redacted)>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> I should add that if the engine actually is healthy, boost away. What
>>> I didn't get is the advice--which I assume was Coop's--that, "hey you've got
>>> a crappy motor--boost it now and rebuild later!" If the motor's not crappy
>>> as Bill is pointing out, then it all makes more sense.
>>>
>>> -Bryan
>>>
>>>
>>
>

This read-only message was archived from a public mail list.
Mail From: "Bill Cardell" <(email redacted)>

Thanks! There's a t fitting in the gauge kit.
=20

Bill Cardell=20
TurboDog's Dad=20
www.flyinmiata.com=20
www.fmwestfield.com=20
orders 1-800-FLY-MX5S=20
tech support 970-464-5600=20
Don't miss Flyin' Miata's Open House! Aug 14-17, 2008=20

=20

________________________________

From: Dillon [mailto:(email redacted)]=20
Sent: Wednesday, June 11, 2008 7:13 PM
To: Bill Cardell
Cc: (email redacted); miatapower List
Subject: Re: turbo a motor with less than perfect compression?


Good deal - I just placed the order (22168). My '99 does have cruise -
I assume I can find the T fittings without too much trouble.

Thanks again guys.

I'll report back once I've checked the vacuum.


On Wed, Jun 11, 2008 at 5:20 PM, Bill Cardell <(email redacted)>
wrote:


Boost gauge would do fine. If you're getting one of our kits,
just get the gauge and mount ahead of time and get credited back when
you take the plunge. Plenty of ports on the manifold, might have to T
in, depending on whether you have cruise or not.
=20

Bill Cardell=20
TurboDog's Dad=20
www.flyinmiata.com=20
www.fmwestfield.com=20
orders 1-800-FLY-MX5S=20
tech support 970-464-5600=20
Don't miss Flyin' Miata's Open House! Aug 14-17, 2008=20

=20

________________________________

From: Dillon [mailto:(email redacted)]=20
Sent: Wednesday, June 11, 2008 6:08 PM
To: Bill Cardell
Cc: (email redacted); miatapower List=20

Subject: Re: turbo a motor with less than perfect compression?
=09

I can do this test with the same gauge I'd use to measure boost
right? If eventually I'd like to have that info available from the
cockpit, I could just buy a "boost gauge" and an A-pillar mount and
measure vacuum that way ... two birds with one stone right?
=09
The alternative being to hit up the local FLAPS and buy a
cheapie vacuum gauge ...
=09
Is there a port somewhere on the intake manifold to connect to?
Any gotchyas or special procedures to follow?
=09
=09
=09
=09
On Tue, Jun 10, 2008 at 2:04 PM, Bill Cardell
<(email redacted)> wrote:
=09

simplest test is stick a vacuum gauge on it. If it's not
healthy, it won't pull good vacuum.
=20

TurboDog's Dad=20
Bill Cardell=20
www.flyinmiata.com=20
1-800-FLY-MX5S=20
970-464-5600 tech support=20
Don't miss our Open House! August 14-17=20

=20

________________________________

=09
From: (email redacted)
[mailto:(email redacted)] On Behalf Of Dillon
=09
Sent: Tuesday, June 10, 2008 2:49 PM=20

To: (email redacted)
Cc: miatapower List
Subject: Re: turbo a motor with less than perfect
compression?
=09

That was not Coop's advice. Coop's advice was to fix
the motor before doing anything else.
=09
Of course, his goals (start from a known good motor so I
don't come around and bug him for service because his turbo install blew
up my engine) are not necessarily the same as mine (cheap, fast &
reliable - I pick all 3).
=09
The suggestion that my motor would probably do fine on
low boost for a while came from some folks on another mailing list.
=09
I think what I am going to do is this:
=09

* seafoam the motor=20
* buy or borrow a compression tester and test once
more
=09
* find someone with a leakdown gauge that is
nearby (this is no offense to Coop, I just don't want to drive all the
way to Maple Valley for a leakdown test) and try once more to see if I
can confirm the numbers=20
* post the results back to the list one last time=20
* ignore all your advice, turbo my motor, and see
how long it goes before it blows ;)
=09

I don't quite understand how the numbers are so bad when
I'm not using any noticeable amount of oil.
=09
=09
On Tue, Jun 10, 2008 at 11:20 AM, Bryan Wyatt
<(email redacted)> wrote:
=09

I should add that if the engine actually is healthy, boost away. What I
didn't get is the advice--which I assume was Coop's--that, "hey you've
got a crappy motor--boost it now and rebuild later!" If the motor's not
crappy as Bill is pointing out, then it all makes more sense.

-Bryan

=09

This read-only message was archived from a public mail list.
Mail From: "Simon Whitworth" <(email redacted)>

On Wed, Jun 11, 2008 at 6:13 PM, Dillon <(email redacted)> wrote:
> Good deal - I just placed the order (22168).

It's just not as exciting tracking other people's orders as it is your own ;-)

This read-only message was archived from a public mail list.
Mail From: Dillon <(email redacted)>

You guys are freaks ;)

The worst part is the package and I will end up crossing paths as I'm on the
road, and it'll probably be two weeks before we're both in the same place
...

now I should start thinking about where to mount it. I don't have a gauge
pod, but I'm thinking about re-purposing one of the eyeballs ...

On Wed, Jun 11, 2008 at 9:58 PM, Simon Whitworth <(email redacted)>
wrote:

> On Wed, Jun 11, 2008 at 6:13 PM, Dillon <(email redacted)> wrote:
> > Good deal - I just placed the order (22168).
>
> It's just not as exciting tracking other people's orders as it is your own
> ;-)
> _______________________________________________
> Miatapower mailing list
> (email redacted)
> list.miatapower.net/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/miatapower
>

This read-only message was archived from a public mail list.
Mail From: Dillon <(email redacted)>

I just test-fitted the boost/vacuum gauge and got a quick reading of ~19psi
at cold idle. I have to go to the store to find some teflon tape, so we'll
get a warm idle test here shortly. This is near sea level.

On Wed, Jun 11, 2008 at 5:20 PM, Bill Cardell <(email redacted)> wrote:

> Boost gauge would do fine. If you're getting one of our kits, just get
> the gauge and mount ahead of time and get credited back when you take the
> plunge. Plenty of ports on the manifold, might have to T in, depending on
> whether you have cruise or not.
>
>

This read-only message was archived from a public mail list.
Mail From: "Larry Alster" <(email redacted)>

That's in the ballpark, is it a steady 19"??







Larry

White Knight 1991 Crystal White #99 CSP
Silver Bullet 1992 Silverstone #17 SM2 FM I+ Turbo
Honey B 1992 Sunburst Yellow #99 SM2L JR Supercharger
Whooosh 2004 Titanium Mazdaspeed MX-5

LowCountry Miata lowcountrymiataclub.net
Masters Miata
RAGS 074



From: (email redacted)
[mailto:(email redacted)] On Behalf Of Dillon
Sent: Sunday, July 06, 2008 5:41 PM
To: Bill Cardell
Cc: miatapower List
Subject: Re: turbo a motor with less than perfect compression?



I just test-fitted the boost/vacuum gauge and got a quick reading of ~19psi
at cold idle. I have to go to the store to find some teflon tape, so we'll
get a warm idle test here shortly. This is near sea level.

On Wed, Jun 11, 2008 at 5:20 PM, Bill Cardell <(email redacted)> wrote:

Boost gauge would do fine. If you're getting one of our kits, just get the
gauge and mount ahead of time and get credited back when you take the
plunge. Plenty of ports on the manifold, might have to T in, depending on
whether you have cruise or not.