Miatapower List Archive

This read-only message was archived from a public mail list.
Mail From: "Ross Kuhns" <(email redacted)>


So Vijay, did you remove the belt first to see how that felt and then go to
bypassing the pump? I'm interested in the difference between belt removed,
chambers connected (like yours), and o-ring removed between chambers.

Glad it's working for you!

Ross


>From: "Iyer, Vijay (V.)" <(email redacted)>
>Reply-To: "Iyer, Vijay (V.)" <(email redacted)>
>To: (email redacted)
>Subject: RE: Thoughts on removing power steering?
>Date: Thu, 5 Apr 2001 08:02:12 -0400
>
>
>Hi everyone,
>I've been reading the list for a few months, but this is my first post.
>I did this a couple of months back and I love it. I plugged up all the
>connections on the rack except for the two on the that run to either side
>of
>the piston. I jumped those two with a very short connection (a couple of
>inches). The end result is a fairly "clean" setup. Steering effort is high,
>but IMO not too high for daily use. I'm on SP Sport 8000s; I imagine the
>effort could become objectionable on R compound tires at slow speeds.
>
>Vijay Iyer
>Advanced & Pre-program Transmission
>Program Technology Implementation
>(313) 32-29672
>
> >-----Original Message-----
> >From: Ross Kuhns [mailto:(email redacted)]
> >Sent: Wednesday, April 04, 2001 11:42 PM
> >To: (email redacted); (email redacted); (email redacted)
> >Subject: RE: Thoughts on removing power steering?
> >
> >
> >
> >I've been running about a week without the ps belt off, to try
> >it out. It's
> >pretty tight with 15" rims, 195's. I wouldn't want the power
> >rack set up for
> >"manual" for daily use. Feels good on fast corners, didn't get
> >a chance to
> >autox it as our first one was snowed out...gotta love ohio ;)
> >I just took the belt off, I imagine it'd be easier to steer if
> >I bypass the
> >pump and run the lines together, anyone?
> >I recall Les saying on their race car they'd taken the pump
> >apart and simply
> >removed the o-ring separating the two chambers, Tom Graham
> >keeps wanting to
> >go that route.
> >
> >Ross
> >
> >Oh, you'll need to buy the idler pulley and a new belt if you
> >want to keep
> >the AC.
> >
> >
> >
> >>From: "Vic Harder" <(email redacted)>
> >>(NPC) To those who expressed interest in fuel railsI did
> >this... love the
> >>manual rack!! (Stock tires and wheels)
> >>
> >>Vic
> >> -----Original Message-----
> >> From: (email redacted)
> >>[mailto:(email redacted)]On Behalf Of Todd Paciorek
> >> Sent: Wednesday, April 04, 2001 9:12 PM
> >> To: (email redacted)
> >> Subject: Thoughts on removing power steering?
> >>
> >>
> >> Hi all,
> >>
> >> Ok, what are the downsides to completely removing the
> >power steering
> >>system? Anything other than increased effort needed at low / no speed?
> >>
> >> Potential benefits? Weight reduction, slightly better
> >turbo oil drain
> >>line, more room for turbo water lines and - can the revised
> >FM pipes work
> >>with AC but no PS?
> >>
> >> Thoughts?
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> Todd
> >>
> >
> >_________________________________________________________________
> >Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at explorer.msn.com
> >
> >
>

_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at explorer.msn.com

This read-only message was archived from a public mail list.
Mail From: "Iyer, Vijay (V.)" <(email redacted)>


I never actually tried it without the belt. The closest I had come is
driving down a twisty hill, cutting the engine, and throwing it in neutral.
Based on what I remember of doing that, there is significantly less effort
with the chambers connected, maybe halfway between the belt being off and
using the manual rack.
I looked at what was involved to remove the o-ring between the chambers, but
it quickly looked more involved than it was worth. It seems the pinion needs
to be removed and the entire rack extracted to do it.
>-----Original Message-----
>From: Ross Kuhns [mailto:(email redacted)]
>Sent: Thursday, April 05, 2001 11:59 PM
>To: (email redacted); (email redacted)
>Subject: RE: Thoughts on removing power steering? (LPC)
>
>
>So Vijay, did you remove the belt first to see how that felt
>and then go to
>bypassing the pump? I'm interested in the difference between
>belt removed,
>chambers connected (like yours), and o-ring removed between chambers.
>
>Glad it's working for you!
>
>Ross
>
>
>>From: "Iyer, Vijay (V.)" <(email redacted)>
>>Reply-To: "Iyer, Vijay (V.)" <(email redacted)>
>>To: (email redacted)
>>Subject: RE: Thoughts on removing power steering?
>>Date: Thu, 5 Apr 2001 08:02:12 -0400
>>
>>
>>Hi everyone,
>>I've been reading the list for a few months, but this is my
>first post.
>>I did this a couple of months back and I love it. I plugged up all the
>>connections on the rack except for the two on the that run to
>either side
>>of
>>the piston. I jumped those two with a very short connection
>(a couple of
>>inches). The end result is a fairly "clean" setup. Steering
>effort is high,
>>but IMO not too high for daily use. I'm on SP Sport 8000s; I
>imagine the
>>effort could become objectionable on R compound tires at slow speeds.
>>
>>Vijay Iyer
>>Advanced & Pre-program Transmission
>>Program Technology Implementation
>>(313) 32-29672
>>
>> >-----Original Message-----
>> >From: Ross Kuhns [mailto:(email redacted)]
>> >Sent: Wednesday, April 04, 2001 11:42 PM
>> >To: (email redacted); (email redacted); (email redacted)
>> >Subject: RE: Thoughts on removing power steering?
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >I've been running about a week without the ps belt off, to try
>> >it out. It's
>> >pretty tight with 15" rims, 195's. I wouldn't want the power
>> >rack set up for
>> >"manual" for daily use. Feels good on fast corners, didn't get
>> >a chance to
>> >autox it as our first one was snowed out...gotta love ohio ;)
>> >I just took the belt off, I imagine it'd be easier to steer if
>> >I bypass the
>> >pump and run the lines together, anyone?
>> >I recall Les saying on their race car they'd taken the pump
>> >apart and simply
>> >removed the o-ring separating the two chambers, Tom Graham
>> >keeps wanting to
>> >go that route.
>> >
>> >Ross
>> >
>> >Oh, you'll need to buy the idler pulley and a new belt if you
>> >want to keep
>> >the AC.
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >>From: "Vic Harder" <(email redacted)>
>> >>(NPC) To those who expressed interest in fuel railsI did
>> >this... love the
>> >>manual rack!! (Stock tires and wheels)
>> >>
>> >>Vic
>> >> -----Original Message-----
>> >> From: (email redacted)
>> >>[mailto:(email redacted)]On Behalf Of Todd Paciorek
>> >> Sent: Wednesday, April 04, 2001 9:12 PM
>> >> To: (email redacted)
>> >> Subject: Thoughts on removing power steering?
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> Hi all,
>> >>
>> >> Ok, what are the downsides to completely removing the
>> >power steering
>> >>system? Anything other than increased effort needed at low
>/ no speed?
>> >>
>> >> Potential benefits? Weight reduction, slightly better
>> >turbo oil drain
>> >>line, more room for turbo water lines and - can the revised
>> >FM pipes work
>> >>with AC but no PS?
>> >>
>> >> Thoughts?
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> Todd
>> >>
>> >
>> >_________________________________________________________________
>> >Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at explorer.msn.com
>> >
>> >
>>
>
>_________________________________________________________________
>Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at explorer.msn.com
>
>

This read-only message was archived from a public mail list.
Mail From: "Tom Graham" <(email redacted)>


Hi Ross and Vijay,

Has anyone any ideas on lowering the friction/sticktion of the PS system?
This is the one thing about the Miata that I don't enjoy. It's got lousy
steering feel.

Has anyone got any ideas on replacing the PS fluid with something to slick
up the seals? I thought of Mobile 1 0W-30. Or maybe light fork oil.

Anything?

Tom
_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at explorer.msn.com

This read-only message was archived from a public mail list.
Mail From: "Iyer, Vijay (V.)" <(email redacted)>


Are you talking about lubrication of the rack w/o a power steering pump?
The friction in the steering system is really negligible. When I had my rack
out to plug it, I could turn the pinion very easily. That's what convinced
me that it wasn't worth the time to remove the seal in the rack. 99.9% of
your effort is moving the tires relative to the road.
The road feel is better than even the manual rack, IMHO. The amount of
feedback scared me at first, especially since the steering effort decreases
rapidly as the front tires break loose.

Vijay

>-----Original Message-----
>From: Tom Graham [mailto:(email redacted)]
>Sent: Friday, April 06, 2001 9:35 AM
>To: (email redacted); (email redacted); (email redacted)
>Subject: RE: Thoughts on removing power steering? (LPC)
>
>
>
>Hi Ross and Vijay,
>
>Has anyone any ideas on lowering the friction/sticktion of the
>PS system?
>This is the one thing about the Miata that I don't enjoy. It's
>got lousy
>steering feel.
>
>Has anyone got any ideas on replacing the PS fluid with
>something to slick
>up the seals? I thought of Mobile 1 0W-30. Or maybe light fork oil.
>
>Anything?
>
>Tom
>_________________________________________________________________
>Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at explorer.msn.com
>
>

This read-only message was archived from a public mail list.
Mail From: (email redacted)


The P/S is speed sensitive, the faster you rev, the more effort that is
needed.
This works on a pressure valve, the higher the pressure, the more restriction
to the rack.
The valve is in the pump under the fitting for the high pressure line.
Controlling the pressure valve is a spring, a lighter spring may induce
faster response to the valve giving a heavier feel.

In theory....

<< Hi Ross and Vijay,

Has anyone any ideas on lowering the friction/sticktion of the PS system?
This is the one thing about the Miata that I don't enjoy. It's got lousy
steering feel.

Has anyone got any ideas on replacing the PS fluid with something to slick
up the seals? I thought of Mobile 1 0W-30. Or maybe light fork oil.

Anything?

Tom >>


Les.
www.apexautoeng.com

This read-only message was archived from a public mail list.
Mail From: "Charles Brown" <(email redacted)>


So that's how this is made? I thought there was something wrong with the
pump acts like the belt was slipping on hi RPM low speed slaloms. This is
the poorest part of the steering on my car. Can this spring rate be safely
changed to eliminate the odd change (loss) of the PS assist during fast lock
to lock transitions?

Charles Brown


----- Original Message -----
From: <(email redacted)>
Subject: Re: Thoughts on removing power steering? (LPC)


>
> The P/S is speed sensitive, the faster you rev, the more effort that is
> needed.
> This works on a pressure valve, the higher the pressure, the more
restriction
> to the rack.
> The valve is in the pump under the fitting for the high pressure line.
> Controlling the pressure valve is a spring, a lighter spring may induce
> faster response to the valve giving a heavier feel.
>
> In theory....
>
> << Hi Ross and Vijay,
>
> Has anyone any ideas on lowering the friction/sticktion of the PS system?
> This is the one thing about the Miata that I don't enjoy. It's got lousy
> steering feel.
>
> Has anyone got any ideas on replacing the PS fluid with something to
slick
> up the seals? I thought of Mobile 1 0W-30. Or maybe light fork oil.
>
> Anything?
>
> Tom >>
>
>
> Les.
> www.apexautoeng.com

This read-only message was archived from a public mail list.
Mail From: Mark Cookson <(email redacted)>

Problems with the steering suddenly going to super hard during fast lock
to lock autocross type transitions are generally caused by the pump or
the pump's orifices not being large enough to quickly flow the required
amount of fluid.

The Eclipse cars are especially prone to this. Everything's normal and
then about halfway through the turn you can barely move the wheel...
Some of the Eclipse people enlarged the fluid passage holes to deal with
this, but I never heard anything about how well this mod works.

At least we have manual as an option, because if it's the orifices that
are at fault, disconnecting the pump isn't going to solve this problem.
If the pump is the restriction, then bypassing it will solve this
problem.

MarkC

On Friday, April 6, 2001, at 11:10 AM, Charles Brown wrote:

> So that's how this is made? I thought there was something wrong
> with the
> pump acts like the belt was slipping on hi RPM low speed slaloms. This
> is
> the poorest part of the steering on my car. Can this spring rate be
> safely
> changed to eliminate the odd change (loss) of the PS assist during fast
> lock
> to lock transitions?

This read-only message was archived from a public mail list.
Mail From: "Tom Graham" <(email redacted)>


Vijay,

What bothers me is driving straight down the road. The amount of effort to
guide the car should be nil but the power steering takes something like 9
pounds to turn the wheel without a load! I think I got this figure from the
Enthusiasts Manual. I find driving this car in a straight line to be tiring.

I don't trust Mazda's steering rack design since I saw a drawing of the Gen
II RX-7 rack. It used a roller on the back of the rack to hold tight against
the pinion. The roller yoke was a briliant idea to eliminate friction and
have tight steering. Then the engineers put humps in the center of the rack
to raise the roller from the rack and bind the road feel on center with
friction. I can't be the only driver that thinks damping road feel is a bad
idea.

Tom

----Original Message Follows----

Are you talking about lubrication of the rack w/o a power steering pump?
The friction in the steering system is really negligible. When I had my rack
out to plug it, I could turn the pinion very easily. That's what convinced
me that it wasn't worth the time to remove the seal in the rack. 99.9% of
your effort is moving the tires relative to the road.
The road feel is better than even the manual rack, IMHO. The amount of
feedback scared me at first, especially since the steering effort decreases
rapidly as the front tires break loose.

Vijay

>-----Original Message-----
>From: Tom Graham [mailto:(email redacted)]
>Sent: Friday, April 06, 2001 9:35 AM
>To: (email redacted); (email redacted); (email redacted)
>Subject: RE: Thoughts on removing power steering? (LPC)
>
>
>
>Hi Ross and Vijay,
>
>Has anyone any ideas on lowering the friction/sticktion of the
>PS system?
>This is the one thing about the Miata that I don't enjoy. It's
>got lousy
>steering feel.
>
>Has anyone got any ideas on replacing the PS fluid with
>something to slick
>up the seals? I thought of Mobile 1 0W-30. Or maybe light fork oil.
>
>Anything?
>
>Tom
>_________________________________________________________________
>Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at explorer.msn.com
>
>


_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at explorer.msn.com

This read-only message was archived from a public mail list.
Mail From: (email redacted)


<< So that's how this is made? I thought there was something wrong with
the
pump acts like the belt was slipping on hi RPM low speed slaloms. This is
the poorest part of the steering on my car. Can this spring rate be safely
changed to eliminate the odd change (loss) of the PS assist during fast lock
to lock transitions?

Charles Brown >>

That is another problem, I'm not sure the pump or the flow can keep up with
the rack in those fast transitions. Probably why there is always a mess
around the pump after an autox.

Les.
www.apexautoeng.com

This read-only message was archived from a public mail list.
Mail From: "Iyer, Vijay (V.)" <(email redacted)>


Are you sure that on the miata there is a lot of friction in the rack? I
remember being able to move it very easily. That RX-7 rack does sound very
slick, though.
Perhaps the rubber isolators between the rack and its mounts are also
responsible for the damping. Has anyone tried aluminum or delrin to improve
high-frequency road feel?

>I don't trust Mazda's steering rack design since I saw a
>drawing of the Gen
>II RX-7 rack. It used a roller on the back of the rack to hold
>tight against
>the pinion. The roller yoke was a briliant idea to eliminate
>friction and
>have tight steering. Then the engineers put humps in the
>center of the rack
>to raise the roller from the rack and bind the road feel on
>center with
>friction. I can't be the only driver that thinks damping road
>feel is a bad
>idea.
>

This read-only message was archived from a public mail list.
Mail From: "Jeremy Schuster" <(email redacted)>


I was talking to a ex-DSM-driving friend of mine yesterday about this very
thing. The easy solution to the 'lock up' is to shim the spring that was
mentioned below with washers, E.G. make it stiffer. It's under the big high
pressure fitting right on top of the pump. For those of us with FMIII style
boxes it is quite easy to get to, which is good because there is no rule of
thumb about just how much to shim the spring.

Jeremy L. Schuster

> -----Original Message-----
> From: (email redacted)
> [mailto:(email redacted)]On Behalf Of Charles Brown
> Sent: Friday, April 06, 2001 1:10 PM
> To: (email redacted); (email redacted)
> Subject: Re: Thoughts on removing power steering? (LPC)
>
>
>
> So that's how this is made? I thought there was something
> wrong with the
> pump acts like the belt was slipping on hi RPM low speed slaloms. This is
> the poorest part of the steering on my car. Can this spring rate
> be safely
> changed to eliminate the odd change (loss) of the PS assist
> during fast lock
> to lock transitions?
>
> Charles Brown
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: <(email redacted)>
> Subject: Re: Thoughts on removing power steering? (LPC)
>
>
> >
> > The P/S is speed sensitive, the faster you rev, the more effort that is
> > needed.
> > This works on a pressure valve, the higher the pressure, the more
> restriction
> > to the rack.
> > The valve is in the pump under the fitting for the high pressure line.
> > Controlling the pressure valve is a spring, a lighter spring may induce
> > faster response to the valve giving a heavier feel.
> >
> > In theory....
> >
> > << Hi Ross and Vijay,
> >
> > Has anyone any ideas on lowering the friction/sticktion of the
> PS system?
> > This is the one thing about the Miata that I don't enjoy. It's
> got lousy
> > steering feel.
> >
> > Has anyone got any ideas on replacing the PS fluid with something to
> slick
> > up the seals? I thought of Mobile 1 0W-30. Or maybe light fork oil.
> >
> > Anything?
> >
> > Tom >>
> >
> >
> > Les.
> > www.apexautoeng.com
>