Miatapower List Archive

This read-only message was archived from a public mail list.
Mail From: "suwedh.s" <(email redacted)>


I will change my Lambda targets this week end and reduce timing in zone 420 & 425
and see what happens.I plan to reload and do a tuning run at the same time since
the WA intercooler is in and I haven't time to play with it much. Couple of
questions for those of us who's running FM ECU (specially 1.6 Mk. 2):

1. Do you know how many turns of the idle screw you are at from fully closed? I
think mine is left over from stock ECU days and it is probably too far out and
cause my idle fuel very high (around 100).
I'm also have a worse case of idle hunting than before WA ic went in specially
when A/C cutting in and out.

2.From the Power LIst, I understand that for 1.6 chip TURBO 1 and 2 is the same
and they are Bill's default while for 1.8 chip TURBO 1 is Bill's and TURBO 2 is
Ray's. Also under the impression that Bill's default is more aggressive and for
good gas and high altitude while Ray's is more conservative and for sea level and
Cal (bad) gas. Has anyone try Ray's default and if you do what is the result ? If
Ray's default is more accommodating to SC car then it may not be a bad thing to
use (although for me that will mean hand input everything to the reload).

BTW, I'm running 16m0202a chip and waiting for the latest chip with rearrange
window and new A/C idle logic.

TIA,
Suwedh Sundarakul
Bangkok,Thailand

albert jenab wrote:

> That was going to be my next trick....I did the lambda target thing
> yesterday in z29 & 30 and it didn't completely fix it.  Might leave it
> there and pull timing next.
>
> Though I am getting mild detonation at around 2500-3000 rpm (so 425-430),
> and the knock sensor should fix it, timing wise, since it's above 2000 rpm.
>  It isn't.  So maybe it backs off max 6 degrees each time you power up the
> computer?  Who knows.
> -Al
>
> At 09:48 AM 9/29/00 -0700, Rod Letcher wrote:
> >Suwedh and Al,
> >Bill asked me what problems you guys were having that brought up the low rpm
> >knock sensor question. i told him about the tipin detonation you guys were
> >experiencing and your attempts to solve it via the accel zones.
> >Here is his response:
> >"Sounds like they're chasing it in the wrong direction. What they need to do
> >is pull timing from the 400 row, probably 415-420."
> >
> >I hope I'm not sticking my nose in where its not wanted here. Maybe we aught
> >to petition Bill to get back on the sscor?
> >
> >But,  I'd appreciate it if you guys could post the results of his
> >recommendation, there are not very many of us fm-ecu Sebring troops, so it
> >may be of benifit to the few there are.
> >
> >Rod
> >
> >
> >----- Original Message -----
> >From: suwedh.s <(email redacted)>
> >To: Rod Letcher <(email redacted)>
> >Cc: albert jenab <(email redacted)>; <(email redacted)>
> >Sent: Thursday, September 28, 2000 7:17 PM
> >Subject: Re: SSCOR Sourcing a Tony Pulley
> >
> >
> >> Rod,
> >>
> >> Thanks a lot, that explain why knock sensor doesn't seems to work when you
> >can
> >> hear the knocking sound coming from the engine, especially at tip-in.
> >>
> >> Suwedh Sundarakul
> >> Bangkok, Thailand
> >>
> >> Rod Letcher wrote:
> >>
> >> > Suwedh,
> >> > I asked Bill Cardell about the question of the Link knock sensor and rpm
> >> > below 3000. Here is his response:
> >> >
> >> > "Rod,
> >> > The knock sensor does not pull timing below 2K or 60 kpa, though it does
> >> > datalog down there."
> >> >
> >> > Bill Cardell
> >> > (email redacted)
> >> > Flyin' Miata
> >> >
> >> > So there you go, straight from the guru hisself!
> >> >
> >> > Rod
> >> >
> >> > sebringmiata.com
> >> > sebringmiata.com/ati2de
> >> > Rod Letcher
> >> > 96 1.8
> >> > Sebring SC
> >> > Moss bbk & 61mm nose pulley
> >> > Aquamist H2O inj
> >> > FM-ecu 555cc/min inj's
> >> > A/A intercooled
> >> > 10+psi after IC
> >> >
> >> > ----- Original Message -----
> >> > From: suwedh.s <(email redacted)>
> >> > To: albert jenab <(email redacted)>
> >> > Cc: <(email redacted)>
> >> > Sent: Wednesday, September 27, 2000 9:20 PM
> >> > Subject: Re: SSCOR Sourcing a Tony Pulley
> >> >
> >> > > Al
> >> > >
> >> > > Yes, I increased accel fuel slightly for Z22 & Z23 (by 2 units) and it
> >> > seems to
> >> > > help. I think I will add a little more in Z22 now that I've install
> >RSpeed
> >> > A/F
> >> > > ratio Meter and can see if there is any lean condition at tip-in. I
> >also
> >> > pull
> >> > > back timing in zone 315, 320 and 325 by 2 deg (8 units). I've
> >(actually my
> >> > shop)
> >> > > also just completed the installation of BSP WA intercooler and change
> >plug
> >> > to NGK
> >> > > ZFR6-F11, drove around last night in the rain at around 28 deg C and
> >the
> >> > tip-in
> >> > > detonation is now almost gone. Will check again when doing a tuning
> >run
> >> > (may be
> >> > > this week end). I still have knock default at 30 since lowering it to
> >20
> >> > before
> >> > > didn't do anything, somebody also posted earlier that FM/ Ken Hill
> >said
> >> > LINK
> >> > > knock sensor inhibited below 3000 rpm which seems to be a true
> >statement
> >> > in my
> >> > > case, may be Rod can provide more info about this with his experience
> >at
> >> > the DA
> >> > > Open House.
> >> > >
> >> > > As a side note, my idle is now worse than before WA intercooler
> >installed.
> >> > the
> >> > > car also has tendency to die just after cold start, may be because of
> >> > increase
> >> > > throttle volume-time to go play with choke fuel and decay time. Also
> >found
> >> > that
> >> > > my max boost drop from 0.45 to 0.39 Bar-time for the "Tony" pulley.
> >Found
> >> > that
> >> > > HKS now has a boost gauge that read KPa for both vac and boost-put in
> >an
> >> > order
> >> > > for one, soon there will be some correlation between LINK keypad and
> >boost
> >> > gauge
> >> > > especially under vac.
> >> > >
> >> > > One of these day I hope to have a reasonably stable idle. The fiddling
> >is
> >> > a never
> >> > > ending process.
> >> > >
> >> > > Suwedh Sundarakul
> >> > > Bangkok,Thailand
> >> > >
> >> > > albert jenab wrote:
> >> > >
> >> > > > At 11:47 AM 9/26/00 +0700, you wrote:
> >> > > > >Since we live in the same climate, even at standard 6 psi boost you
> >> > will run
> >> > > > >into detonation-trust me on this one-so please consider some form
> >of
> >> > charge
> >> > > > >cooler whether intercooler or water injection or you will have to
> >dial
> >> > the
> >> > > > >static timing back and the car will bog down even if you already
> >have
> >> > some
> >> > > > form
> >> > > > >of fuel and timing control (I've gone from MSD to J&S and now FM
> >ECU
> >> > but
> >> > > > still
> >> > > > >have a tip in detonation at 1500-3000 rpm).
> >> > > >
> >> > > > I installed an FM ECU a few weeks ago and also have seen the tip-in
> >> > > > detonation at 1500-3000 rpm. Have you tried richening up the ACCEL
> >> > zones?
> >> > > > I tried that last weekend and it seemed to help. Didn't get rid of
> >it
> >> > > > entirely, but I need to experiment some more.
> >> > > >
> >> > > > For those of you not familiar, the Link has an adaptive tuning
> >feature,
> >> > > > that adjusts fuel based on what it reads off the O2 sensor. The
> >computer
> >> > > > has target lambda values for various manifold pressures, steadily
> >richer
> >> > > > for less vacuum and then higher boost. If you have a knock sensor,
> >it
> >> > > > backs off timing when it senses detonation as well. These settings
> >get
> >> > > > saved after each tuning run if you choose. The computer does not
> >adapt
> >> > or
> >> > > > change settings when it senses throttle movement (acceleration,
> >> > > > deceleration), needs a semi-constant load. You can manually adjust &
> >> > save
> >> > > > richness under accel. The base map included in the ECU is tuned for
> >a
> >> > > > turbo, for an SC you need to fiddle a bit.
> >> > > >
> >> > > > I had gotten most of the rpm/load zones tuned well, but was still
> >> > getting
> >> > > > some mild detonation at tip-in. Took me a while to understand that
> >there
> >> > > > was no adaption going on under these conditions, even though the ECU
> >was
> >> > > > recording knock events. Richening things up a bit on ACCEL helped,
> >but I
> >> > > > need to do more. I think the extra HP required to spin up the SC
> >makes
> >> > it
> >> > > > run lean relative to what is required. If messing with the ACCEL
> >doesn't
> >> > > > cure it, I will try raising the target lambda value for the higher
> >boost
> >> > > > zones.
> >> > > >
> >> > > > I have heard (from a semi-famous BMW chip tuner) that a stock O2
> >sensor
> >> > is
> >> > > > not accurate enough to do serious WOT chip tuning, being accurate
> >only
> >> > at
> >> > > > near stoichiometric ranges. The pros use a $$ Horiba O2 sensor on
> >dynos
> >> > to
> >> > > > get very accurate readings.
> >> > > >
> >> > > > What sensitivity do you have set for the knock sensor threshold? The
> >> > > > standard setting on mine was 30, I needed to reduce that to 25 to
> >pick
> >> > up
> >> > > > the knock on tip-in.
> >> > > > -Al
> >> > > > 91, Tony pulley, Aquamist Stage I, etc.
> >> > >
> >> > > -
> >> > > Send submissions to (email redacted)
> >> > > To unsubscribe, email (email redacted) with
> >> > > "unsubscribe sscor" in the body of the message.
> >> > >
> >>
> >> -
> >> Send submissions to (email redacted)
> >> To unsubscribe, email (email redacted) with
> >> "unsubscribe sscor" in the body of the message.
> >>
> >
> >
> >
> >

This read-only message was archived from a public mail list.
Mail From: Bill Cardell <(email redacted)>


notes below.

Bill Cardell
(email redacted)
Flyin' Miata
flyinmiata.com
200mphmiata.net
1-800-FLY-MX5S (orders only)
1-970-242-3800 (tech)


-----Original Message-----
From: suwedh.s [mailto:(email redacted)]
Sent: Monday, October 02, 2000 12:48 AM
To: albert jenab
Cc: Rod Letcher; (email redacted); (email redacted)
Subject: Re: SSCOR Sourcing a Tony Pulley



I will change my Lambda targets this week end and reduce timing in zone 420
& 425
and see what happens.I plan to reload and do a tuning run at the same time
since
the WA intercooler is in and I haven't time to play with it much. Couple of
questions for those of us who's running FM ECU (specially 1.6 Mk. 2):

What exactly are you changing the lambda targets to??

1. Do you know how many turns of the idle screw you are at from fully
closed? I
think mine is left over from stock ECU days and it is probably too far out
and
cause my idle fuel very high (around 100).
I'm also have a worse case of idle hunting than before WA ic went in
specially
when A/C cutting in and out.

Have you downloaded the tuning document from our site? Idle air screw
position should have no (minimal)affect on idle fuel. You want the idle duty
cycle when warm to be around 30-35%. Make sure you see an asterisk in the
idle window when idling.

2.From the Power LIst, I understand that for 1.6 chip TURBO 1 and 2 is the
same
and they are Bill's default while for 1.8 chip TURBO 1 is Bill's and TURBO 2
is
Ray's. Also under the impression that Bill's default is more aggressive and
for
good gas and high altitude while Ray's is more conservative and for sea
level and
Cal (bad) gas. Has anyone try Ray's default and if you do what is the result
? If
Ray's default is more accommodating to SC car then it may not be a bad thing
to
use (although for me that will mean hand input everything to the reload).

Just have the car in zone ignition or zonefuel when driving, watch to see
what zones are actually pinging and manually pull timing in those zones.

BTW, I'm running 16m0202a chip and waiting for the latest chip with
rearrange
window and new A/C idle logic.

TIA,
Suwedh Sundarakul
Bangkok,Thailand

albert jenab wrote:

> That was going to be my next trick....I did the lambda target thing
> yesterday in z29 & 30 and it didn't completely fix it.  Might leave it
> there and pull timing next.
>
> Though I am getting mild detonation at around 2500-3000 rpm (so 425-430),
> and the knock sensor should fix it, timing wise, since it's above 2000
rpm.
>  It isn't.  So maybe it backs off max 6 degrees each time you power up the
> computer?  Who knows.
> -Al
>
> At 09:48 AM 9/29/00 -0700, Rod Letcher wrote:
> >Suwedh and Al,
> >Bill asked me what problems you guys were having that brought up the low
rpm
> >knock sensor question. i told him about the tipin detonation you guys
were
> >experiencing and your attempts to solve it via the accel zones.
> >Here is his response:
> >"Sounds like they're chasing it in the wrong direction. What they need to
do
> >is pull timing from the 400 row, probably 415-420."
> >
> >I hope I'm not sticking my nose in where its not wanted here. Maybe we
aught
> >to petition Bill to get back on the sscor?
> >
> >But,  I'd appreciate it if you guys could post the results of his
> >recommendation, there are not very many of us fm-ecu Sebring troops, so
it
> >may be of benifit to the few there are.
> >
> >Rod
> >
> >
> >----- Original Message -----
> >From: suwedh.s <(email redacted)>
> >To: Rod Letcher <(email redacted)>
> >Cc: albert jenab <(email redacted)>; <(email redacted)>
> >Sent: Thursday, September 28, 2000 7:17 PM
> >Subject: Re: SSCOR Sourcing a Tony Pulley
> >
> >
> >> Rod,
> >>
> >> Thanks a lot, that explain why knock sensor doesn't seems to work when
you
> >can
> >> hear the knocking sound coming from the engine, especially at tip-in.
> >>
> >> Suwedh Sundarakul
> >> Bangkok, Thailand
> >>
> >> Rod Letcher wrote:
> >>
> >> > Suwedh,
> >> > I asked Bill Cardell about the question of the Link knock sensor and
rpm
> >> > below 3000. Here is his response:
> >> >
> >> > "Rod,
> >> > The knock sensor does not pull timing below 2K or 60 kpa, though it
does
> >> > datalog down there."
> >> >
> >> > Bill Cardell
> >> > (email redacted)
> >> > Flyin' Miata
> >> >
> >> > So there you go, straight from the guru hisself!
> >> >
> >> > Rod
> >> >
> >> > sebringmiata.com
> >> > sebringmiata.com/ati2de
> >> > Rod Letcher
> >> > 96 1.8
> >> > Sebring SC
> >> > Moss bbk & 61mm nose pulley
> >> > Aquamist H2O inj
> >> > FM-ecu 555cc/min inj's
> >> > A/A intercooled
> >> > 10+psi after IC
> >> >
> >> > ----- Original Message -----
> >> > From: suwedh.s <(email redacted)>
> >> > To: albert jenab <(email redacted)>
> >> > Cc: <(email redacted)>
> >> > Sent: Wednesday, September 27, 2000 9:20 PM
> >> > Subject: Re: SSCOR Sourcing a Tony Pulley
> >> >
> >> > > Al
> >> > >
> >> > > Yes, I increased accel fuel slightly for Z22 & Z23 (by 2 units) and
it
> >> > seems to
> >> > > help. I think I will add a little more in Z22 now that I've install
> >RSpeed
> >> > A/F
> >> > > ratio Meter and can see if there is any lean condition at tip-in. I
> >also
> >> > pull
> >> > > back timing in zone 315, 320 and 325 by 2 deg (8 units). I've
> >(actually my
> >> > shop)
> >> > > also just completed the installation of BSP WA intercooler and
change
> >plug
> >> > to NGK
> >> > > ZFR6-F11, drove around last night in the rain at around 28 deg C
and
> >the
> >> > tip-in
> >> > > detonation is now almost gone. Will check again when doing a tuning
> >run
> >> > (may be
> >> > > this week end). I still have knock default at 30 since lowering it
to
> >20
> >> > before
> >> > > didn't do anything, somebody also posted earlier that FM/ Ken Hill
> >said
> >> > LINK
> >> > > knock sensor inhibited below 3000 rpm which seems to be a true
> >statement
> >> > in my
> >> > > case, may be Rod can provide more info about this with his
experience
> >at
> >> > the DA
> >> > > Open House.
> >> > >
> >> > > As a side note, my idle is now worse than before WA intercooler
> >installed.
> >> > the
> >> > > car also has tendency to die just after cold start, may be because
of
> >> > increase
> >> > > throttle volume-time to go play with choke fuel and decay time.
Also
> >found
> >> > that
> >> > > my max boost drop from 0.45 to 0.39 Bar-time for the "Tony" pulley.
> >Found
> >> > that
> >> > > HKS now has a boost gauge that read KPa for both vac and boost-put
in
> >an
> >> > order
> >> > > for one, soon there will be some correlation between LINK keypad
and
> >boost
> >> > gauge
> >> > > especially under vac.
> >> > >
> >> > > One of these day I hope to have a reasonably stable idle. The
fiddling
> >is
> >> > a never
> >> > > ending process.
> >> > >
> >> > > Suwedh Sundarakul
> >> > > Bangkok,Thailand
> >> > >
> >> > > albert jenab wrote:
> >> > >
> >> > > > At 11:47 AM 9/26/00 +0700, you wrote:
> >> > > > >Since we live in the same climate, even at standard 6 psi boost
you
> >> > will run
> >> > > > >into detonation-trust me on this one-so please consider some
form
> >of
> >> > charge
> >> > > > >cooler whether intercooler or water injection or you will have
to
> >dial
> >> > the
> >> > > > >static timing back and the car will bog down even if you already
> >have
> >> > some
> >> > > > form
> >> > > > >of fuel and timing control (I've gone from MSD to J&S and now FM
> >ECU
> >> > but
> >> > > > still
> >> > > > >have a tip in detonation at 1500-3000 rpm).
> >> > > >
> >> > > > I installed an FM ECU a few weeks ago and also have seen the
tip-in
> >> > > > detonation at 1500-3000 rpm. Have you tried richening up the
ACCEL
> >> > zones?
> >> > > > I tried that last weekend and it seemed to help. Didn't get rid
of
> >it
> >> > > > entirely, but I need to experiment some more.
> >> > > >
> >> > > > For those of you not familiar, the Link has an adaptive tuning
> >feature,
> >> > > > that adjusts fuel based on what it reads off the O2 sensor. The
> >computer
> >> > > > has target lambda values for various manifold pressures, steadily
> >richer
> >> > > > for less vacuum and then higher boost. If you have a knock
sensor,
> >it
> >> > > > backs off timing when it senses detonation as well. These
settings
> >get
> >> > > > saved after each tuning run if you choose. The computer does not
> >adapt
> >> > or
> >> > > > change settings when it senses throttle movement (acceleration,
> >> > > > deceleration), needs a semi-constant load. You can manually
adjust &
> >> > save
> >> > > > richness under accel. The base map included in the ECU is tuned
for
> >a
> >> > > > turbo, for an SC you need to fiddle a bit.
> >> > > >
> >> > > > I had gotten most of the rpm/load zones tuned well, but was still
> >> > getting
> >> > > > some mild detonation at tip-in. Took me a while to understand
that
> >there
> >> > > > was no adaption going on under these conditions, even though the
ECU
> >was
> >> > > > recording knock events. Richening things up a bit on ACCEL
helped,
> >but I
> >> > > > need to do more. I think the extra HP required to spin up the SC
> >makes
> >> > it
> >> > > > run lean relative to what is required. If messing with the ACCEL
> >doesn't
> >> > > > cure it, I will try raising the target lambda value for the
higher
> >boost
> >> > > > zones.
> >> > > >
> >> > > > I have heard (from a semi-famous BMW chip tuner) that a stock O2
> >sensor
> >> > is
> >> > > > not accurate enough to do serious WOT chip tuning, being accurate
> >only
> >> > at
> >> > > > near stoichiometric ranges. The pros use a $$ Horiba O2 sensor on
> >dynos
> >> > to
> >> > > > get very accurate readings.
> >> > > >
> >> > > > What sensitivity do you have set for the knock sensor threshold?
The
> >> > > > standard setting on mine was 30, I needed to reduce that to 25 to
> >pick
> >> > up
> >> > > > the knock on tip-in.
> >> > > > -Al
> >> > > > 91, Tony pulley, Aquamist Stage I, etc.
> >> > >
> >> > > -
> >> > > Send submissions to (email redacted)
> >> > > To unsubscribe, email (email redacted) with
> >> > > "unsubscribe sscor" in the body of the message.
> >> > >
> >>
> >> -
> >> Send submissions to (email redacted)
> >> To unsubscribe, email (email redacted) with
> >> "unsubscribe sscor" in the body of the message.
> >>
> >
> >
> >
> >