Miatapower List Archive

This read-only message was archived from a public mail list.
Mail From: "Burgess, Michael L." <(email redacted)>

Hello! I'm curious what everyone's a/c (if equipped) is putting out.

I'm just looking for answers please, if you know them, much appreciated.

year, a/c temp, coolant, original?, why not?

r12 systems (i've heard can go down into the 30s!):
i.e. 1991, 58*F, r134a retro, yes (r12 compressor/condensor)

r134a systems:
i.e. 1997, 45*f, r134a

Other car's input is welcome too. My buick regal 1998, cools down to 47*F
when full a/c is on.


If anyone has any input, this is much appreciated. I have a somewhat
working r12 system on my miata, and also have a complete system from a 1997,
and I am trying to figure out if I am dealing with the 'diminishing returns'
problem here. If I can only get 5*F less out of 134a---I don't really feel
like pulling the compressor and messing with everything just to do so.

Much appreciated!

-Mike


______________________________________________________________________
This email has been scanned by the MessageLabs Email Security System.
This message and any files transmitted with it are confidential and are
solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom they are addressed. If you
have received this e-mail in error, please notify (email redacted).
____________________________________________________________________

This read-only message was archived from a public mail list.
Mail From: "Bill Cardell" <(email redacted)>

Mike,
FWIW, I rarely need to turn the fan past first or second position on the
newer 134 systems and it's 102 here right now. Remember, get too far
into the 30s and the evap will freeze up, then it'll get real warm fast.
=20
Bill Cardell (TurboDog's Dad)
www.flyinmiata.com <flyinmiata.com/>=20
1-800-FLY-MX5S
tech 970-242-3800
=20

________________________________

From: Burgess, Michael L. [mailto:(email redacted)]=20
Sent: Friday, July 15, 2005 11:20 AM
To: (email redacted)
Subject: [npc] r12 vs 134a in cabin temps



Hello! I'm curious what everyone's a/c (if equipped) is putting out.=20

I'm just looking for answers please, if you know them, much appreciated.


year, a/c temp, coolant, original?, why not?=20

r12 systems (i've heard can go down into the 30s!):=20
i.e. 1991, 58*F, r134a retro, yes (r12 compressor/condensor)=20

r134a systems:=20
i.e. 1997, 45*f, r134a=20

Other car's input is welcome too. My buick regal 1998, cools down to
47*F when full a/c is on.=20


If anyone has any input, this is much appreciated. I have a somewhat
working r12 system on my miata, and also have a complete system from a
1997, and I am trying to figure out if I am dealing with the
'diminishing returns' problem here. If I can only get 5*F less out of
134a---I don't really feel like pulling the compressor and messing with
everything just to do so.

Much appreciated!=20

-Mike=20


______________________________________________________________________
This email has been scanned by the MessageLabs Email Security System.
This message and any files transmitted with it are confidential and are
solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom they are
addressed. If you=20
have received this e-mail in error, please notify
(email redacted).
____________________________________________________________________

This read-only message was archived from a public mail list.
Mail From: "Burgess, Michael L." <(email redacted)>

Wow that's awesome. I am really considering putting on my '97 system and
just scraping the r12 system that's on my car. Why do something twice? ya
know.

Thanks,
Mike

-----Original Message-----
From: Bill Cardell [mailto:(email redacted)]
Sent: Friday, July 15, 2005 1:30 PM
To: Burgess, Michael L.; (email redacted)
Subject: RE: [npc] r12 vs 134a in cabin temps


Mike,
FWIW, I rarely need to turn the fan past first or second position on the
newer 134 systems and it's 102 here right now. Remember, get too far into
the 30s and the evap will freeze up, then it'll get real warm fast.

Bill Cardell (TurboDog's Dad)
<flyinmiata.com/> www.flyinmiata.com
1-800-FLY-MX5S
tech 970-242-3800


_____

From: Burgess, Michael L. [mailto:(email redacted)]
Sent: Friday, July 15, 2005 11:20 AM
To: (email redacted)
Subject: [npc] r12 vs 134a in cabin temps



Hello! I'm curious what everyone's a/c (if equipped) is putting out.

I'm just looking for answers please, if you know them, much appreciated.

year, a/c temp, coolant, original?, why not?

r12 systems (i've heard can go down into the 30s!):
i.e. 1991, 58*F, r134a retro, yes (r12 compressor/condensor)

r134a systems:
i.e. 1997, 45*f, r134a

Other car's input is welcome too. My buick regal 1998, cools down to 47*F
when full a/c is on.


If anyone has any input, this is much appreciated. I have a somewhat
working r12 system on my miata, and also have a complete system from a 1997,
and I am trying to figure out if I am dealing with the 'diminishing returns'
problem here. If I can only get 5*F less out of 134a---I don't really feel
like pulling the compressor and messing with everything just to do so.

Much appreciated!

-Mike


______________________________________________________________________
This email has been scanned by the MessageLabs Email Security System.
This message and any files transmitted with it are confidential and are
solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom they are addressed.
If you
have received this e-mail in error, please notify
(email redacted).
____________________________________________________________________

______________________________________________________________________
This email has been scanned by the MessageLabs Email Security System.
For more information please visit messagelabs.com/email




______________________________________________________________________
This email has been scanned by the MessageLabs Email Security System.
This message and any files transmitted with it are confidential and are
solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom they are addressed. If you
have received this e-mail in error, please notify (email redacted).
____________________________________________________________________

This read-only message was archived from a public mail list.
Mail From: Josh D <(email redacted)>

My 90 still has the r12 system and everything works great on it.=20
Recharged it earlier this summer and got a reading right around 35*.

On 7/15/05, Burgess, Michael L. <(email redacted)> wrot=
e:
>=20=20
>=20
> Hello! I'm curious what everyone's a/c (if equipped) is putting out.=20
>=20
> I'm just looking for answers please, if you know them, much appreciated.=
=20
>=20
> year, a/c temp, coolant, original?, why not?=20
>=20
> r12 systems (i've heard can go down into the 30s!):=20
> i.e. 1991, 58*F, r134a retro, yes (r12 compressor/condensor)=20
>=20
> r134a systems:=20
> i.e. 1997, 45*f, r134a=20
>=20
> Other car's input is welcome too. My buick regal 1998, cools down to 47*F
> when full a/c is on.=20
>=20=20
>=20
> If anyone has any input, this is much appreciated. I have a somewhat
> working r12 system on my miata, and also have a complete system from a 19=
97,
> and I am trying to figure out if I am dealing with the 'diminishing retur=
ns'
> problem here. If I can only get 5*F less out of 134a---I don't really fe=
el
> like pulling the compressor and messing with everything just to do so.=20
>=20
> Much appreciated!=20
>=20
> -Mike=20
> ______________________________________________________________________
> This email has been scanned by the MessageLabs Email Security System.
> This message and any files transmitted with it are confidential and are
> solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom they are addresse=
d.
> If you=20
> have received this e-mail in error, please notify
> (email redacted).
> ____________________________________________________________________
>=20=20


--=20
Josh
'90 Crystal White
Miata #512
Air Capital Miata Club
aircapitalmiataclub.com/

This read-only message was archived from a public mail list.
Mail From: "Burgess, Michael L." <(email redacted)>

Ok so I throw the gauge (low side is all I have) on my car.

100psi when the car is off! omg.

When the car is running (ac full blast, idle set to 1500rpm), the compressor
kicks on when the needle of the pressure gauge approaches zero.

The pressure builds in teh system until about 45psi and then shuts off. The
pressure lowers towards zero until the compressor kicks on again.

The cycling happens maybe 3 times a minute max.

Any advice? I tried to call places but they all turn me down b/c of
'contamination' garbage.

Thanks,
Mike, still at 58*F :-(

-----Original Message-----
From: Josh D
To: Burgess, Michael L.
Cc: (email redacted)
Sent: 7/15/2005 3:03 PM
Subject: Re: [npc] r12 vs 134a in cabin temps

My 90 still has the r12 system and everything works great on it.
Recharged it earlier this summer and got a reading right around 35*.

On 7/15/05, Burgess, Michael L. <(email redacted)>
wrote:
>
>
> Hello! I'm curious what everyone's a/c (if equipped) is putting out.
>
> I'm just looking for answers please, if you know them, much
appreciated.
>
> year, a/c temp, coolant, original?, why not?
>
> r12 systems (i've heard can go down into the 30s!):
> i.e. 1991, 58*F, r134a retro, yes (r12 compressor/condensor)
>
> r134a systems:
> i.e. 1997, 45*f, r134a
>
> Other car's input is welcome too. My buick regal 1998, cools down to
47*F
> when full a/c is on.
>
>
> If anyone has any input, this is much appreciated. I have a somewhat
> working r12 system on my miata, and also have a complete system from a
1997,
> and I am trying to figure out if I am dealing with the 'diminishing
returns'
> problem here. If I can only get 5*F less out of 134a---I don't really
feel
> like pulling the compressor and messing with everything just to do so.

>
> Much appreciated!
>
> -Mike
> ______________________________________________________________________
> This email has been scanned by the MessageLabs Email Security System.
> This message and any files transmitted with it are confidential and
are
> solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom they are
addressed.
> If you
> have received this e-mail in error, please notify
> (email redacted).
> ____________________________________________________________________
>


--
Josh
'90 Crystal White
Miata #512
Air Capital Miata Club
aircapitalmiataclub.com/

______________________________________________________________________
This email has been scanned by the MessageLabs Email Security System.
For more information please visit messagelabs.com/email


______________________________________________________________________
This email has been scanned by the MessageLabs Email Security System.
This message and any files transmitted with it are confidential and are
solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom they are addressed. If you
have received this e-mail in error, please notify (email redacted).
____________________________________________________________________

This read-only message was archived from a public mail list.
Mail From: Josh D <(email redacted)>

I should clarify - 35 wasn't my ambient cabin temp. That was with a
meat thermometer stuck down the vent. I haven't measured the ambient
cabin temp though I'm sure it's significantly warmer.


On 7/15/05, Burgess, Michael L. <(email redacted)> wrot=
e:
>=20=20
>=20
> Ok so I throw the gauge (low side is all I have) on my car.=20
>=20
> 100psi when the car is off! omg.=20
>=20
> When the car is running (ac full blast, idle set to 1500rpm), the compres=
sor
> kicks on when the needle of the pressure gauge approaches zero.=20
>=20
> The pressure builds in teh system until about 45psi and then shuts off. =
The
> pressure lowers towards zero until the compressor kicks on again.=20
>=20
> The cycling happens maybe 3 times a minute max.=20
>=20
> Any advice? I tried to call places but they all turn me down b/c of
> 'contamination' garbage.=20
>=20
> Thanks,=20
> Mike, still at 58*F :-(=20
>=20=20
>=20
> -----Original Message-----=20
> From: Josh D=20
> To: Burgess, Michael L.=20
> Cc: (email redacted)=20
> Sent: 7/15/2005 3:03 PM=20
> Subject: Re: [npc] r12 vs 134a in cabin temps=20
>=20
> My 90 still has the r12 system and everything works great on it.=20
> Recharged it earlier this summer and got a reading right around 35*.=20
>=20
> On 7/15/05, Burgess, Michael L.
> <(email redacted)>=20
> wrote:=20
> >=20=20
> >=20
> > Hello! I'm curious what everyone's a/c (if equipped) is putting out.=
=20
> >=20
> > I'm just looking for answers please, if you know them, much=20
> appreciated.=20
> >=20
> > year, a/c temp, coolant, original?, why not?=20
> >=20
> > r12 systems (i've heard can go down into the 30s!):=20
> > i.e. 1991, 58*F, r134a retro, yes (r12 compressor/condensor)=20
> >=20
> > r134a systems:=20
> > i.e. 1997, 45*f, r134a=20
> >=20
> > Other car's input is welcome too. My buick regal 1998, cools down to=
=20
> 47*F=20
> > when full a/c is on.=20
> >=20=20
> >=20
> > If anyone has any input, this is much appreciated. I have a somewhat=
=20
> > working r12 system on my miata, and also have a complete system from a=
=20
> 1997,=20
> > and I am trying to figure out if I am dealing with the 'diminishing=20
> returns'=20
> > problem here. If I can only get 5*F less out of 134a---I don't really=
=20
> feel=20
> > like pulling the compressor and messing with everything just to do so.=
=20
>=20
> >=20
> > Much appreciated!=20
> >=20
> > -Mike=20
> >
> ______________________________________________________________________
> > This email has been scanned by the MessageLabs Email Security System.=
=20
> > This message and any files transmitted with it are confidential and=20
> are=20
> > solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom they are=20
> addressed.=20
> > If you=20
> > have received this e-mail in error, please notify=20
> > (email redacted).=20
> >
> ____________________________________________________________________
> >=20=20
>=20=20
>=20
> --=20
> Josh=20
> '90 Crystal White=20
> Miata #512=20
> Air Capital Miata Club=20
> aircapitalmiataclub.com/=20
>=20
> ______________________________________________________________________
> This email has been scanned by the MessageLabs Email Security System.=20
> For more information please visit
> messagelabs.com/email=20
> ______________________________________________________________________
>=20
> This email has been scanned by the MessageLabs Email Security System.
> This message and any files transmitted with it are confidential and are
> solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom they are addresse=
d.
> If you=20
> have received this e-mail in error, please notify
> (email redacted).
> ____________________________________________________________________
>=20=20


--=20
Josh
'90 Crystal White
Miata #512
Air Capital Miata Club
aircapitalmiataclub.com/

This read-only message was archived from a public mail list.
Mail From: "Burgess, Michael L." <(email redacted)>

Unfortunately, I share the same procedure....my temps is with a meat
thermometer as well.

-Mike

-----Original Message-----
From: Josh D
To: Burgess, Michael L.
Cc: (email redacted)
Sent: 7/15/2005 5:23 PM
Subject: Re: [npc] r12 vs 134a in cabin temps

I should clarify - 35 wasn't my ambient cabin temp. That was with a
meat thermometer stuck down the vent. I haven't measured the ambient
cabin temp though I'm sure it's significantly warmer.


On 7/15/05, Burgess, Michael L. <(email redacted)>
wrote:
>
>
> Ok so I throw the gauge (low side is all I have) on my car.
>
> 100psi when the car is off! omg.
>
> When the car is running (ac full blast, idle set to 1500rpm), the
compressor
> kicks on when the needle of the pressure gauge approaches zero.
>
> The pressure builds in teh system until about 45psi and then shuts
off. The
> pressure lowers towards zero until the compressor kicks on again.
>
> The cycling happens maybe 3 times a minute max.
>
> Any advice? I tried to call places but they all turn me down b/c of
> 'contamination' garbage.
>
> Thanks,
> Mike, still at 58*F :-(
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Josh D
> To: Burgess, Michael L.
> Cc: (email redacted)
> Sent: 7/15/2005 3:03 PM
> Subject: Re: [npc] r12 vs 134a in cabin temps
>
> My 90 still has the r12 system and everything works great on it.
> Recharged it earlier this summer and got a reading right around 35*.
>
> On 7/15/05, Burgess, Michael L.
> <(email redacted)>
> wrote:
> >
> >
> > Hello! I'm curious what everyone's a/c (if equipped) is putting
out.
> >
> > I'm just looking for answers please, if you know them, much
> appreciated.
> >
> > year, a/c temp, coolant, original?, why not?
> >
> > r12 systems (i've heard can go down into the 30s!):
> > i.e. 1991, 58*F, r134a retro, yes (r12 compressor/condensor)
> >
> > r134a systems:
> > i.e. 1997, 45*f, r134a
> >
> > Other car's input is welcome too. My buick regal 1998, cools down
to
> 47*F
> > when full a/c is on.
> >
> >
> > If anyone has any input, this is much appreciated. I have a
somewhat
> > working r12 system on my miata, and also have a complete system from
a
> 1997,
> > and I am trying to figure out if I am dealing with the 'diminishing
> returns'
> > problem here. If I can only get 5*F less out of 134a---I don't
really
> feel
> > like pulling the compressor and messing with everything just to do
so.
>
> >
> > Much appreciated!
> >
> > -Mike
> >
> ______________________________________________________________________
> > This email has been scanned by the MessageLabs Email Security
System.
> > This message and any files transmitted with it are confidential and

> are
> > solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom they are
> addressed.
> > If you
> > have received this e-mail in error, please notify
> > (email redacted).
> >
> ____________________________________________________________________
> >
>
>
> --
> Josh
> '90 Crystal White
> Miata #512
> Air Capital Miata Club
> aircapitalmiataclub.com/
>
> ______________________________________________________________________
> This email has been scanned by the MessageLabs Email Security System.
> For more information please visit
> messagelabs.com/email
> ______________________________________________________________________
>
> This email has been scanned by the MessageLabs Email Security System.
> This message and any files transmitted with it are confidential and
are
> solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom they are
addressed.
> If you
> have received this e-mail in error, please notify
> (email redacted).
> ____________________________________________________________________
>


--
Josh
'90 Crystal White
Miata #512
Air Capital Miata Club
aircapitalmiataclub.com/

______________________________________________________________________
This email has been scanned by the MessageLabs Email Security System.
For more information please visit messagelabs.com/email


______________________________________________________________________
This email has been scanned by the MessageLabs Email Security System.
This message and any files transmitted with it are confidential and are
solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom they are addressed. If you
have received this e-mail in error, please notify (email redacted).
____________________________________________________________________

This read-only message was archived from a public mail list.
Mail From: (email redacted)

I have a 89 and 90 Miata. The AC worked on it (89) for nearly 6 years and was always a consistant 38 Degrees (r12). Eventually I topped it off (Father does AC) Although I installed this myself (C package). My second (90) was 60+ when I purchased it. As far as I understand there should be no major difference between R12 and 134A and dont notice it in my cars. With my 90 recharged and converted to 134A. I went from 60+(r12) to exactly 32 degrees converted to 134a.. This is using a professional digital termometer. You usally dont get this low because most shops wont take the time to get it that cold...or R134a.... Radio Shack has a cheep $5 temp guage...digital.

I'd bet you have a leak...Although beleive it or not I have been told a bad ground can cause that sort of symptom. It is afterall an electromagnetic clutch of sorts...Good luck.

You can CERTAINLY get below 40 Degrees using 134A. Again. im at 32...

-------------- Original message --------------

Unfortunately, I share the same procedure....my temps is with a meat thermometer as well.
-Mike
-----Original Message-----
From: Josh D
To: Burgess, Michael L.
Cc: (email redacted)
Sent: 7/15/2005 5:23 PM
Subject: Re: [npc] r12 vs 134a in cabin temps
I should clarify - 35 wasn't my ambient cabin temp. That was with a
meat thermometer stuck down the vent. I haven't measured the ambient
cabin temp though I'm sure it's significantly warmer.


On 7/15/05, Burgess, Michael L. <(email redacted)>
wrote:
>
>
> Ok so I throw the gauge (low side is all I have) on my car.
>
> 100psi when the car is off! omg.
>
> When the car is running (ac full blast, idle set to 1500rpm), the
compressor
> kicks on when the needle of the pressure gauge approaches zero.
>
> The pressure builds in teh system until about 45psi and then shuts
off. The
> pressure lowers towards zero until the compressor kicks on again.
>
> The cycling happens maybe 3 times a minute max.
>
> Any advice? I tried to call places but they all turn me down b/c of
> 'contamination' garbage.
>
> Thanks,
> Mike, still at 58*F :-(
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Josh D
> To: Burgess, Michael L.
> Cc: (email redacted)
> Sent: 7/15/2005 3:03 PM
> Subject: Re: [npc] r12 vs 134a in cabin temps
>
> My 90 still has the r12 system and everything works great on it.
> Recharged it earlier this summer and got a reading right around 35*.
>
> On 7/15/05, Burgess, Michael L.
> <(email redacted)>
> wrote:
> >
> >
> > Hello! I'm curious what everyone's a/c (if equipped) is putting
out.
> >
> > I'm just looking for answers please, if you know them, much
> appreciated.
> >
> > year, a/c temp, coolant, original?, why not?
> >
> > r12 systems (i've heard can go down into the 30s!):
> > i.e. 1991, 58*F, r134a retro, yes (r12 compressor/condensor)
> >
> > r134a systems:
> > i.e. 1997, 45*f, r134a
> >
> > Other car's input is welcome too. My buick regal 1998, cools down
to
> 47*F
> > when full a/c is on.
> >
> >
> > If anyone has any input, this is much appreciated. I have a
somewhat
> > working r12 system on my miata, and also have a complete system from
a
> 1997,
> > and I am trying to figure out if I am dealing with the 'diminishing
> returns'
> > problem here. If I can only get 5*F less out of 134a---I don't
really
> feel
> > like pulling the compressor and messing with everything just to do
so.
>
> >
> > Much appreciated!
> >
> > -Mike
> >
> ______________________________________________________________________
> > This email has been scanned by the MessageLabs Email Security
System.
> > This message and any files transmitted with it are confidential and
> are
> > solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom they are
> addressed.
> > If you
> > have received this e-mail in error, please notify
> > (email redacted).
> >
> ____________________________________________________________________
> >
>
>
> --
> Josh
> '90 Crystal White
> Miata #512
> Air Capital Miata Club
> aircapitalmiataclub.com/
>
> ______________________________________________________________________
> This email has been scanned by the MessageLabs Email Security System.
> For more information please visit
> messagelabs.com/email
> ______________________________________________________________________
>
> This email has been scanned by the MessageLabs Email Security System.
> This message and any files transmitted with it are confidential and
are
> solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom they are
addressed.
> If you
> have received this e-mail in error, please notify
> (email redacted).
> ____________________________________________________________________
>


--
Josh
'90 Crystal White
Miata #512
Air Capital Miata Club
aircapitalmiataclub.com/
______________________________________________________________________
This email has been scanned by the MessageLabs Email Security System.
For more information please visit messagelabs.com/email

______________________________________________________________________
This email has been scanned by the MessageLabs Email Security System.
This message and any files transmitted with it are confidential and are
solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom they are addressed. If you
have received this e-mail in error, please notify (email redacted).
____________________________________________________________________

This read-only message was archived from a public mail list.
Mail From: "Chad J. Douglas" <(email redacted)>

I wouldnt want 32 degree air. Why?
=20
Any moisture in the air is going to try to freeze on the evaporator. Most =
A/C setups stop when it gets to just around 40. That's plenty cold, and y=
ou don't get icing or fog.
=20
The low pressure switch on your system is designed to measure the pressure =
of R12 before cutting the compressor off. And, if you had R12 in there (in=
stead of 134) you'd likely get the 38-40 degree mark like your old car.
=20
Maybe you don't live in a very humid area, or maybe you don't run your air =
for long enough, but you would eventually ice the evaporator if you operate=
d your 32 degree A/C in Cincinnati (75+% humidity)
=20
The only time there's no major difference between R12 and R134a is when you=
have 2 systems that were designed for that particular refrigerant. Genera=
lly R134-converted R12 setups are less efficient. This results in either: =
1. Air that's not as cold as the R12 was or 2. The system is working harder.
=20
This is mostly due to the fact that the condenser in an R12 system is small=
er (maybe not physically, but in terms of heat transfer) and so it can't sh=
ed as much heat to the air as an R134a condenser.
=20
So, you either have to run the compressor more (stealing engine power) or d=
eal with warmer air do to the condenser's inability to shed the heat.
=20
R134 condensers are much more dense and can transfer much more heat to the =
air than the R12 unit can. Just look at the 2 condensers dide by side, you=
'll see the difference easily.
=20
There is a difference in the refrigerant. R12 can absorb more heat in its =
phase change frm liquid to gas than R134a can, so the difference comes in p=
utting a larger condenser (and other components got tweaked too) to shed th=
e heat and cycle the refrigerant back.
=20
Oh god. I'm rambling. I'll stop now.
=20
Chad

-----Original Message-----
From: (email redacted) [mailto:(email redacted)]
Sent: Sunday, July 17, 2005 11:02 PM
To: Burgess, Michael L.; 'Josh D '; Burgess, Michael L.
Cc: '(email redacted) '
Subject: RE: [npc] r12 vs 134a in cabin temps


I have a 89 and 90 Miata. The AC worked on it (89) for nearly 6 years and w=
as always a consistant 38 Degrees (r12). Eventually I topped it off (Father=
does AC) Although I installed this myself (C package). My second (90) was =
60+ when I purchased it. As far as I understand there should be no major di=
fference between R12 and 134A and dont notice it in my cars. With my 90 re=
charged and converted to 134A. I went from 60+(r12) to exactly 32 degrees =
converted to 134a.. This is using a professional digital termometer. You us=
ally dont get this low because most shops wont take the time to get it that=
cold...or R134a.... Radio Shack has a cheep $5 temp guage...digital.
=20
I'd bet you have a leak...Although beleive it or not I have been told a bad=
ground can cause that sort of symptom. It is afterall an electromagnetic c=
lutch of sorts...Good luck.
=20
You can CERTAINLY get below 40 Degrees using 134A. Again. im at 32...
=20

-------------- Original message --------------=20


Unfortunately, I share the same procedure....my temps is with a meat therm=
ometer as well.=20

-Mike=20

-----Original Message-----=20
From: Josh D=20
To: Burgess, Michael L.=20
Cc: (email redacted)=20
Sent: 7/15/2005 5:23 PM=20
Subject: Re: [npc] r12 vs 134a in cabin temps=20

I should clarify - 35 wasn't my ambient cabin temp. That was with a=20
meat thermometer stuck down the vent. I haven't measured the ambient=20
cabin temp though I'm sure it's significantly warmer.=20


On 7/15/05, Burgess, Michael L. <(email redacted)>=20
wrote:=20
>=20=20
>=20
> Ok so I throw the gauge (low side is all I have) on my car.=20
>=20
> 100psi when the car is off! omg.=20
>=20
> When the car is running (ac full blast, idle set to 1500rpm), the=20
compressor=20
> kicks on when the needle of the pressure gauge approaches zero.=20
>=20
> The pressure builds in teh system until about 45psi and then shuts=20
off. The=20
> pressure lowers towards zero until the compressor kicks on again.=20
>=20
> The cycling happens maybe 3 times a minute max.=20
>=20
> Any advice? I tried to call places but they all turn me down b/c of=20
> 'contamination' garbage.=20
>=20
> Thanks,=20
> Mike, still at 58*F :-(=20
>=20=20
>=20
> -----Original Message-----=20
> From: Josh D=20
> To: Burgess, Michael L.=20
> Cc: (email redacted)=20
> Sent: 7/15/2005 3:03 PM=20
> Subject: Re: [npc] r12 vs 134a in cabin temps=20
>=20
> My 90 still has the r12 system and everything works great on it.=20
> Recharged it earlier this summer and got a reading right around 35*.=20
>=20
> On 7/15/05, Burgess, Michael L.=20
> <(email redacted)>=20
> wrote:=20
> >=20=20
> >=20
> > Hello! I'm curious what everyone's a/c (if equipped) is putting=20
out.=20
> >=20
> > I'm just looking for answers please, if you know them, much=20
> appreciated.=20
> >=20
> > year, a/c temp, coolant, original?, why not?=20
> >=20
> > r12 systems (i've heard can go down into the 30s!):=20
> > i.e. 1991, 58*F, r134a retro, yes (r12 compressor/condensor)=20
> >=20
> > r134a systems:=20
> > i.e. 1997, 45*f, r134a=20
> >=20
> > Other car's input is welcome too. My buick regal 1998, cools down=20
to=20
> 47*F=20
> > when full a/c is on.=20
> >=20=20
> >=20
> > If anyone has any input, this is much appreciated. I have a=20
somewhat=20
> > working r12 system on my miata, and also have a complete system from=20
a=20
> 1997,=20
> > and I am trying to figure out if I am dealing with the 'diminishing=20
> returns'=20
> > problem here. If I can only get 5*F less out of 134a---I don't=20
really=20
> feel=20
> > like pulling the compressor and messing with everything just to do=20
so.=20
>=20
> >=20
> > Much appreciated!=20
> >=20
> > -Mike=20
> >=20
> ______________________________________________________________________=20
> > This email has been scanned by the MessageLabs Email Security=20
System.=20
> > This message and any files transmitted with it are confidential and=20

> are=20
> > solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom they are=20
> addressed.=20
> > If you=20
> > have received this e-mail in error, please notify=20
> > (email redacted).=20
> >=20
> ____________________________________________________________________=20
> >=20=20
>=20=20
>=20
> --=20
> Josh=20
> '90 Crystal White=20
> Miata #512=20
> Air Capital Miata Club=20
> aircapitalmiataclub.com/=20
>=20
> ______________________________________________________________________=20
> This email has been scanned by the MessageLabs Email Security System.=20
> For more information please visit=20
> messagelabs.com/email=20
> ______________________________________________________________________=20
>=20
> This email has been scanned by the MessageLabs Email Security System.=20
> This message and any files transmitted with it are confidential and=20
are=20
> solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom they are=20
addressed.=20
> If you=20
> have received this e-mail in error, please notify=20
> (email redacted).=20
> ____________________________________________________________________=20
>=20=20


--=20
Josh=20
'90 Crystal White=20
Miata #512=20
Air Capital Miata Club=20
aircapitalmiataclub.com/=20

______________________________________________________________________=20
This email has been scanned by the MessageLabs Email Security System.=20
For more information please visit messagelabs.com/email=20


______________________________________________________________________
This email has been scanned by the MessageLabs Email Security System.
This message and any files transmitted with it are confidential and are
solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom they are addressed. =
If you=20
have received this e-mail in error, please notify (email redacted)=
ssenkrupp.com.
____________________________________________________________________

This read-only message was archived from a public mail list.
Mail From: (email redacted)

Chad,

Why? I would rather have 32 than 52. And there is no increase in engine load. The system is charged according to MFG specs as well. 32 Degrees at the vent. Not cabin Temp......Josh D. states below he gets 35 Deg. 32 isnt far off from that. Also, I live in San Jose, California. So no humidity as you describe. I've owned 2 miatas, and over 20 other cars and can honestly say i've never experienced an ice issue as described. Ofcourse I have never popped the hood to inspect the AC system Usually im just removing it to make way for a turbo. You have some great insight into the AC system. Good stuff to know.

-------------- Original message --------------

I wouldnt want 32 degree air. Why?

Any moisture in the air is going to try to freeze on the evaporator. Most A/C setups stop when it gets to just around 40. That's plenty cold, and you don't get icing or fog.

The low pressure switch on your system is designed to measure the pressure of R12 before cutting the compressor off. And, if you had R12 in there (instead of 134) you'd likely get the 38-40 degree mark like your old car.

Maybe you don't live in a very humid area, or maybe you don't run your air for long enough, but you would eventually ice the evaporator if you operated your 32 degree A/C in Cincinnati (75+% humidity)

The only time there's no major difference between R12 and R134a is when you have 2 systems that were designed for that particular refrigerant. Generally R134-converted R12 setups are less efficient. This results in either: 1. Air that's not as cold as the R12 was or 2. The system is working harder.

This is mostly due to the fact that the condenser in an R12 system is smaller (maybe not physically, but in terms of heat transfer) and so it can't shed as much heat to the air as an R134a condenser.

So, you either have to run the compressor more (stealing engine power) or deal with warmer air do to the condenser's inability to shed the heat.

R134 condensers are much more dense and can transfer much more heat to the air than the R12 unit can. Just look at the 2 condensers dide by side, you'll see the difference easily.

There is a difference in the refrigerant. R12 can absorb more heat in its phase change frm liquid to gas than R134a can, so the difference comes in putting a larger condenser (and other components got tweaked too) to shed the heat and cycle the refrigerant back.

Oh god. I'm rambling. I'll stop now.

Chad
-----Original Message-----
From: (email redacted) [mailto:(email redacted)]
Sent: Sunday, July 17, 2005 11:02 PM
To: Burgess, Michael L.; 'Josh D '; Burgess, Michael L.
Cc: '(email redacted) '
Subject: RE: [npc] r12 vs 134a in cabin temps


I have a 89 and 90 Miata. The AC worked on it (89) for nearly 6 years and was always a consistant 38 Degrees (r12). Eventually I topped it off (Father does AC) Although I installed this myself (C package). My second (90) was 60+ when I purchased it. As far as I understand there should be no major difference between R12 and 134A and dont notice it in my cars. With my 90 recharged and converted to 134A. I went from 60+(r12) to exactly 32 degrees converted to 134a.. This is using a professional digital termometer. You usally dont get this low because most shops wont take the time to get it that cold...or R134a.... Radio Shack has a cheep $5 temp guage...digital.

I'd bet you have a leak...Although beleive it or not I have been told a bad ground can cause that sort of symptom. It is afterall an electromagnetic clutch of sorts...Good luck.

You can CERTAINLY get below 40 Degrees using 134A. Again. im at 32...

-------------- Original message --------------

Unfortunately, I share the same procedure....my temps is with a meat thermometer as well.
-Mike
-----Original Message-----
From: Josh D
To: Burgess, Michael L.
Cc: (email redacted)
Sent: 7/15/2005 5:23 PM
Subject: Re: [npc] r12 vs 134a in cabin temps
I should clarify - 35 wasn't my ambient cabin temp. That was with a
meat thermometer stuck down the vent. I haven't measured the ambient
cabin temp though I'm sure it's significantly warmer.


On 7/15/05, Burgess, Michael L. <(email redacted)>
wrote:
>
>
> Ok so I throw the gauge (low side is all I have) on my car.
>
> 100psi when the car is off! omg.
>
> When the car is running (ac full blast, idle set to 1500rpm), the
compressor
> kicks on when the needle of the pressure gauge approaches zero.
>
> The pressure builds in teh system until about 45psi and then shuts
off. The
> pressure lowers towards zero until the compressor kicks on again.
>
> The cycling happens maybe 3 times a minute max.
>
> Any advice? I tried to call places but they all turn me down b/c of
> 'contamination' garbage.
>
> Thanks,
> Mike, still at 58*F :-(
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Josh D
> To: Burgess, Michael L.
> Cc: (email redacted)
> Sent: 7/15/2005 3:03 PM
> Subject: Re: [npc] r12 vs 134a in cabin temps
>
> My 90 still has the r12 system and everything works great on it.
> Recharged it earlier this summer and got a reading right around 35*.
>
> On 7/15/05, Burgess, Michael L.
> <(email redacted)>
> wrote:
> >
> >
> > Hello! I'm curious what everyone's a/c (if equipped) is putting
out.
> >
> > I'm just looking for answers please, if you know them, much
> appreciated.
> >
> > year, a/c temp, coolant, original?, why not?
> >
> > r12 systems (i've heard can go down into the 30s!):
> > i.e. 1991, 58*F, r134a retro, yes (r12 compressor/condensor)
> >
> > r134a systems:
> > i.e. 1997, 45*f, r134a
> >
> > Other car's input is welcome too. My buick regal 1998, cools down
to
> 47*F
> > when full a/c is on.
> >
> >
> > If anyone has any input, this is much appreciated. I have a
somewhat
> > working r12 system on my miata, and also have a complete system from
a
> 1997,
> > and I am trying to figure out if I am dealing with the 'diminishing
> returns'
> > problem here. If I can only get 5*F less out of 134a---I don't
really
> feel
> > like pulling the compressor and messing with everything just to do
so.
>
> >
> > Much appreciated!
> >
> > -Mike
> >
> ______________________________________________________________________
> > This email has been scanned by the MessageLabs Email Security
System.
> > This message and any files transmitted with it are confidential and
> are
> > solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom they are
> addressed.
> > If you
> > have received this e-mail in error, please notify
> > (email redacted).
> >
> ____________________________________________________________________
> >
>
>
> --
> Josh
> '90 Crystal White
> Miata #512
> Air Capital Miata Club
> aircapitalmiataclub.com/
>
> ______________________________________________________________________
> This email has been scanned by the MessageLabs Email Security System.
> For more information please visit
> messagelabs.com/email
> ______________________________________________________________________
>
> This email has been scanned by the MessageLabs Email Security System.
> This message and any files transmitted with it are confidential and
are
> solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom they are
addressed.
> If you
> have received this e-mail in error, please notify
> (email redacted).
> ____________________________________________________________________
>


--
Josh
'90 Crystal White
Miata #512
Air Capital Miata Club
aircapitalmiataclub.com/
______________________________________________________________________
This email has been scanned by the MessageLabs Email Security System.
For more information please visit messagelabs.com/email

______________________________________________________________________
This email has been scanned by the MessageLabs Email Security System.
This message and any files transmitted with it are confidential and are
solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom they are addressed. If you
have received this e-mail in error, please notify (email redacted).
____________________________________________________________________

This read-only message was archived from a public mail list.
Mail From: Jim B <(email redacted)>

Did Mazda change the condenser when they went to 134 in '94? I checked the replacement condenser part numbers for 90-93 and 94+ from internet auto part suppliers and they are the same part number. But they show different for '99+

When I changed to 134 I swapped in a 134 compressor with hose. Replaced seals and drier. 3 years later it still works great, but I spent time tweaking it. But I always wondered if the condenser was different and would make any difference.

JimB

"Chad J. Douglas" <(email redacted)> wrote:
I wouldnt want 32 degree air. Why?

Any moisture in the air is going to try to freeze on the evaporator. Most A/C setups stop when it gets to just around 40. That's plenty cold, and you don't get icing or fog.

The low pressure switch on your system is designed to measure the pressure of R12 before cutting the compressor off. And, if you had R12 in there (instead of 134) you'd likely get the 38-40 degree mark like your old car.

Maybe you don't live in a very humid area, or maybe you don't run your air for long enough, but you would eventually ice the evaporator if you operated your 32 degree A/C in Cincinnati (75+% humidity)

The only time there's no major difference between R12 and R134a is when you have 2 systems that were designed for that particular refrigerant. Generally R134-converted R12 setups are less efficient. This results in either: 1. Air that's not as cold as the R12 was or 2. The system is working harder.

This is mostly due to the fact that the condenser in an R12 system is smaller (maybe not physically, but in terms of heat transfer) and so it can't shed as much heat to the air as an R134a condenser.

So, you either have to run the compressor more (stealing engine power) or deal with warmer air do to the condenser's inability to shed the heat.

R134 condensers are much more dense and can transfer much more heat to the air than the R12 unit can. Just look at the 2 condensers dide by side, you'll see the difference easily.

There is a difference in the refrigerant. R12 can absorb more heat in its phase change frm liquid to gas than R134a can, so the difference comes in putting a larger condenser (and other components got tweaked too) to shed the heat and cycle the refrigerant back.

Oh god. I'm rambling. I'll stop now.

Chad
-----Original Message-----
From: (email redacted) [mailto:(email redacted)]
Sent: Sunday, July 17, 2005 11:02 PM
To: Burgess, Michael L.; 'Josh D '; Burgess, Michael L.
Cc: '(email redacted) '
Subject: RE: [npc] r12 vs 134a in cabin temps


I have a 89 and 90 Miata. The AC worked on it (89) for nearly 6 years and was always a consistant 38 Degrees (r12). Eventually I topped it off (Father does AC) Although I installed this myself (C package). My second (90) was 60+ when I purchased it. As far as I understand there should be no major difference between R12 and 134A and dont notice it in my cars. With my 90 recharged and converted to 134A. I went from 60+(r12) to exactly 32 degrees converted to 134a.. This is using a professional digital termometer. You usally dont get this low because most shops wont take the time to get it that cold...or R134a.... Radio Shack has a cheep $5 temp guage...digital.

I'd bet you have a leak...Although beleive it or not I have been told a bad ground can cause that sort of symptom. It is afterall an electromagnetic clutch of sorts...Good luck.

You can CERTAINLY get below 40 Degrees using 134A. Again. im at 32...

-------------- Original message --------------

Unfortunately, I share the same procedure....my temps is with a meat thermometer as well.

-Mike

-----Original Message-----
From: Josh D
To: Burgess, Michael L.
Cc: (email redacted)
Sent: 7/15/2005 5:23 PM
Subject: Re: [npc] r12 vs 134a in cabin temps

I should clarify - 35 wasn't my ambient cabin temp. That was with a
meat thermometer stuck down the vent. I haven't measured the ambient
cabin temp though I'm sure it's significantly warmer.


On 7/15/05, Burgess, Michael L. <(email redacted)>
wrote:
>
>
> Ok so I throw the gauge (low side is all I have) on my car.
>
> 100psi when the car is off! omg.
>
> When the car is running (ac full blast, idle set to 1500rpm), the
compressor
> kicks on when the needle of the pressure gauge approaches zero.
>
> The pressure builds in teh system until about 45psi and then shuts
off. The
> pressure lowers towards zero until the compressor kicks on again.
>
> The cycling happens maybe 3 times a minute max.
>
> Any advice? I tried to call places but they all turn me down b/c of
> 'contamination' garbage.
>
> Thanks,
> Mike, still at 58*F :-(
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Josh D
> To: Burgess, Michael L.
> Cc: (email redacted)
> Sent: 7/15/2005 3:03 PM
> Subject: Re: [npc] r12 vs 134a in cabin temps
>
> My 90 still has the r12 system and everything works great on it.
> Recharged it earlier this summer and got a reading right around 35*.
>
> On 7/15/05, Burgess, Michael L.
> <(email redacted)>
> wrote:
> >
> >
> > Hello! I'm curious what everyone's a/c (if equipped) is putting
out.
> >
> > I'm just looking for answers please, if you know them, much
> appreciated.
> >
> > year, a/c temp, coolant, original?, why not?
> >
> > r12 systems (i've heard can go down into the 30s!):
> > i.e. 1991, 58*F, r134a retro, yes (r12 compressor/condensor)
> >
> > r134a systems:
> > i.e. 1997, 45*f, r134a
> >
> > Other car's input is welcome too. My buick regal 1998, cools down
to
> 47*F
> > when full a/c is on.
> >
> >
> > If anyone has any input, this is much appreciated. I have a
somewhat
> > working r12 system on my miata, and also have a complete system from
a
> 1997,
> > and I am trying to figure out if I am dealing with the 'diminishing
> returns'
> > problem here. If I can only get 5*F less out of 134a---I don't
really
> feel
> > like pulling the compressor and messing with everything just to do
so.
>
> >
> > Much appreciated!
> >
> > -Mike
> >
> ______________________________________________________________________
> > This email has been scanned by the MessageLabs Email Security
System.
> > This message and any files transmitted with it are confidential and

> are
> > solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom they are
> addressed.
> > If you
> > have received this e-mail in error, please notify
> > (email redacted).
> >
> ____________________________________________________________________
> >
>
>
> --
> Josh
> '90 Crystal White
> Miata #512
> Air Capital Miata Club
> aircapitalmiataclub.com/
>
> ______________________________________________________________________
> This email has been scanned by the MessageLabs Email Security System.
> For more information please visit
> messagelabs.com/email
> ______________________________________________________________________
>
> This email has been scanned by the MessageLabs Email Security System.
> This message and any files transmitted with it are confidential and
are
> solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom they are
addressed.
> If you
> have received this e-mail in error, please notify
> (email redacted).
> ____________________________________________________________________
>


--
Josh
'90 Crystal White
Miata #512
Air Capital Miata Club
aircapitalmiataclub.com/

______________________________________________________________________
This email has been scanned by the MessageLabs Email Security System.
For more information please visit messagelabs.com/email

______________________________________________________________________
This email has been scanned by the MessageLabs Email Security System.
This message and any files transmitted with it are confidential and are
solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom they are addressed. If you
have received this e-mail in error, please notify (email redacted).
____________________________________________________________________

This read-only message was archived from a public mail list.
Mail From: "Burgess, Michael L." <(email redacted)>

That is what makes me hesitant to swap out my condensor and even the
evaporator. I mean I have the full '97 system sitting here, but if the 91
stuff is good enough, then what coudl the problem be?

But I have both the r12 and 134 condensors....i'll check em, but I know Chad
is correct b/c i've seen the parts in his garage.

-Mike

-----Original Message-----
From: Jim B [mailto:(email redacted)]
Sent: Monday, July 18, 2005 10:37 AM
To: Chad J. Douglas; (email redacted); Burgess, Michael L.; Josh D
Cc: (email redacted)
Subject: RE: [npc] r12 vs 134a in cabin temps


Did Mazda change the condenser when they went to 134 in '94? I checked the
replacement condenser part numbers for 90-93 and 94+ from internet auto part
suppliers and they are the same part number. But they show different for
'99+

When I changed to 134 I swapped in a 134 compressor with hose. Replaced
seals and drier. 3 years later it still works great, but I spent time
tweaking it. But I always wondered if the condenser was different and would
make any difference.

JimB

"Chad J. Douglas" <(email redacted)> wrote:

I wouldnt want 32 degree air. Why?

Any moisture in the air is going to try to freeze on the evaporator. Most
A/C setups stop when it gets to just around 40. That's plenty cold, and
you don't get icing or fog.

The low pressure switch on your system is designed to measure the pressure
of R12 before cutting the compressor off. And, if you had R12 in there
(instead of 134) you'd likely get the 38-40 degree mark like your old car.

Maybe you don't live in a very humid area, or maybe you don't run your air
for long enough, but you would eventually ice the evaporator if you operated
your 32 degree A/C in Cincinnati (75+% humidity)

The only time there's no major difference between R12 and R134a is when you
have 2 systems that were designed for that particular refrigerant.
Generally R134-converted R12 setups are less efficient. This results in
either: 1. Air that's not as cold as the R12 was or 2. The system is working
harder.

This is mostly due to the fact that the condenser in an R12 system is
smaller (maybe not physically, but in terms of heat transfer) and so it
can't shed as much heat to the air as an R134a condenser.

So, you either have to run the compressor more (stealing engine power) or
deal with warmer air do to the condenser's inability to shed the heat.

R134 condensers are much more dense and can transfer much more heat to the
air than the R12 unit can. Just look at the 2 condensers dide by side,
you'll see the difference easily.

There is a difference in the refrigerant. R12 can absorb more heat in its
phase change frm liquid to gas than R134a can, so the difference comes in
putting a larger condenser (and other components got tweaked too) to shed
the heat and cycle the refrigerant back.

Oh god. I'm rambling. I'll stop now.

Chad

-----Original Message-----
From: (email redacted) [mailto:(email redacted)]
Sent: Sunday, July 17, 2005 11:02 PM
To: Burgess, Michael L.; 'Josh D '; Burgess, Michael L.
Cc: '(email redacted) '
Subject: RE: [npc] r12 vs 134a in cabin temps


I have a 89 and 90 Miata. The AC worked on it (89) for nearly 6 years and
was always a consistant 38 Degrees (r12). Eventually I topped it off (Father
does AC) Although I installed this myself (C package). My second (90) was
60+ when I purchased it. As far as I understand there should be no major
difference between R12 and 134A and dont notice it in my cars. With my 90
recharged and converted to 134A. I went from 60+(r12) to exactly 32 degrees
converted to 134a.. This is using a professional digital termometer. You
usally dont get this low because most shops wont take the time to get it
that cold...or R134a.... Radio Shack has a cheep $5 temp guage...digital.

I'd bet you have a leak...Although beleive it or not I have been told a bad
ground can cause that sort of symptom. It is afterall an electromagnetic
clutch of sorts...Good luck.

You can CERTAINLY get below 40 Degrees using 134A. Again. im at 32...


-------------- Original message --------------


Unfortunately, I share the same procedure....my temps is with a meat
thermometer as well.

-Mike

-----Original Message-----
From: Josh D
To: Burgess, Michael L.
Cc: (email redacted)
Sent: 7/15/2005 5:23 PM
Subject: Re: [npc] r12 vs 134a in cabin temps

I should clarify - 35 wasn't my ambient cabin temp. That was with a
meat thermometer stuck down the vent. I haven't measured the ambient
cabin temp though I'm sure it's significantly warmer.


On 7/15/05, Burgess, Michael L. <(email redacted)>
wrote:
>
>
> Ok so I throw the gauge (low side is all I have) on my car.
>
> 100psi when the car is off! omg.
>
> When the car is running (ac full blast, idle set to 1500rpm), the
compressor
> kicks on when the needle of the pressure gauge approaches zero.
>
> The pressure builds in teh system until about 45psi and then shuts
off. The
> pressure lowers towards zero until the compressor kicks on again.
>
> The cycling happens maybe 3 times a minute max.
>
> Any advice? I tried to call places but they all turn me down b/c of
> 'contamination' garbage.
>
> Thanks,
> Mike, still at 58*F :-(
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Josh D
> To: Burgess, Michael L.
> Cc: (email redacted)
> Sent: 7/15/2005 3:03 PM
> Subject: Re: [npc] r12 vs 134a in cabin temps
>
> My 90 still has the r12 system and everything works great on it.
> Recharged it earlier this summer and got a reading right around 35*.
>
> On 7/15/05, Burgess, Michael L.
> <(email redacted)>
> wrote:
> >
> >
> > Hello! I'm curious what everyone's a/c (if equipped) is putting
out.
> >
> > I'm just looking for answers please, if you know them, much
> appreciated.
> >
> > year, a/c temp, coolant, original?, why not?
> >
> > r12 systems (i've heard can go down into the 30s!):
> > i.e. 1991, 58*F, r134a retro, yes (r12 compressor/condensor)
> >
> > r134a systems:
> > i.e. 1997, 45*f, r134a
> >
> > Other car's input is welcome too. My buick regal 1998, cools down
to
> 47*F
> > when full a/c is on.
> >
> >
> > If anyone has any input, this is much appreciated. I have a
somewhat
> > working r12 system on my miata, and also have a complete system from
a
> 1997,
> > and I am trying to figure out if I am dealing with the 'diminishing
> returns'
> > problem here. If I can only get 5*F less out of 134a---I don't
really
> feel
> > like pulling the compressor and messing with everything just to do
so.
>
> >
> > Much appreciated!
> >
> > -Mike
> >
> ______________________________________________________________________
> > This email has been scanned by the MessageLabs Email Security
System.
> > This message and any files transmitted with it are confidential and

> are
> > solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom they are
> addressed.
> > If you
> > have received this e-mail in error, please notify
> > (email redacted).
> >
> ____________________________________________________________________
> >
>
>
> --
> Josh
> '90 Crystal White
> Miata #512
> Air Capital Miata Club
> aircapitalmiataclub.com/ <aircapitalmiataclub.com/>

>
> ______________________________________________________________________
> This email has been scanned by the MessageLabs Email Security System.
> For more information please visit
> messagelabs.com/email <messagelabs.com/email>
> ______________________________________________________________________
>
> This email has been scanned by the MessageLabs Email Security System.
> This message and any files transmitted with it are confidential and
are
> solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom they are
addressed.
> If you
> have received this e-mail in error, please notify
> (email redacted).
> ____________________________________________________________________
>


--
Josh
'90 Crystal White
Miata #512
Air Capital Miata Club
aircapitalmiataclub.com/ <aircapitalmiataclub.com/>

______________________________________________________________________
This email has been scanned by the MessageLabs Email Security System.
For more information please visit messagelabs.com/email
<messagelabs.com/email>


______________________________________________________________________
This email has been scanned by the MessageLabs Email Security System.
This message and any files transmitted with it are confidential and are
solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom they are addressed.
If you
have received this e-mail in error, please notify
(email redacted).
____________________________________________________________________



______________________________________________________________________
This email has been scanned by the MessageLabs Email Security System.
For more information please visit messagelabs.com/email




______________________________________________________________________
This email has been scanned by the MessageLabs Email Security System.
This message and any files transmitted with it are confidential and are
solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom they are addressed. If you
have received this e-mail in error, please notify (email redacted).
____________________________________________________________________

This read-only message was archived from a public mail list.
Mail From: "Chad J. Douglas" <(email redacted)>

I have a spare R12 condenser in my garage. It's DEFINATELY less dense than=
the 134 unit.=20=20
=20
Burgess has both condenser types as well... Do you concur, sir?

-----Original Message-----
From: Jim B [mailto:(email redacted)]
Sent: Monday, July 18, 2005 10:37 AM
To: Chad J. Douglas; (email redacted); Burgess, Michael L.; Josh D
Cc: (email redacted)
Subject: RE: [npc] r12 vs 134a in cabin temps


Did Mazda change the condenser when they went to 134 in '94? I checked the =
replacement condenser part numbers for 90-93 and 94+ from internet auto par=
t suppliers and they are the same part number. But they show different for =
'99+
=20
When I changed to 134 I swapped in a 134 compressor with hose. Replaced se=
als and drier. 3 years later it still works great, but I spent time tweakin=
g it. But I always wondered if the condenser was different and would make a=
ny difference.=20
=20
JimB

"Chad J. Douglas" <(email redacted)> wrote:

I wouldnt want 32 degree air. Why?
=20
Any moisture in the air is going to try to freeze on the evaporator. Most =
A/C setups stop when it gets to just around 40. That's plenty cold, and y=
ou don't get icing or fog.
=20
The low pressure switch on your system is designed to measure the pressure =
of R12 before cutting the compressor off. And, if you had R12 in there (in=
stead of 134) you'd likely get the 38-40 degree mark like your old car.
=20
Maybe you don't live in a very humid area, or maybe you don't run your air =
for long enough, but you would eventually ice the evaporator if you operate=
d your 32 degree A/C in Cincinnati (75+% humidity)
=20
The only time there's no major difference between R12 and R134a is when you=
have 2 systems that were designed for that particular refrigerant. Genera=
lly R134-converted R12 setups are less efficient. This results in either: =
1. Air that's not as cold as the R12 was or 2. The system is working harder.
=20
This is mostly due to the fact that the condenser in an R12 system is small=
er (maybe not physically, but in terms of heat transfer) and so it can't sh=
ed as much heat to the air as an R134a condenser.
=20
So, you either have to run the compressor more (stealing engine power) or d=
eal with warmer air do to the condenser's inability to shed the heat.
=20
R134 condensers are much more dense and can transfer much more heat to the =
air than the R12 unit can. Just look at the 2 condensers dide by side, you=
'll see the difference easily.
=20
There is a difference in the refrigerant. R12 can absorb more heat in its =
phase change frm liquid to gas than R134a can, so the difference comes in p=
utting a larger condenser (and other components got tweaked too) to shed th=
e heat and cycle the refrigerant back.
=20
Oh god. I'm rambling. I'll stop now.
=20
Chad

-----Original Message-----
From: (email redacted) [mailto:(email redacted)]
Sent: Sunday, July 17, 2005 11:02 PM
To: Burgess, Michael L.; 'Josh D '; Burgess, Michael L.
Cc: '(email redacted) '
Subject: RE: [npc] r12 vs 134a in cabin temps


I have a 89 and 90 Miata. The AC worked on it (89) for nearly 6 years and w=
as always a consistant 38 Degrees (r12). Eventually I topped it off (Father=
does AC) Although I installed this myself (C package). My second (90) was =
60+ when I purchased it. As far as I understand there should be no major di=
fference between R12 and 134A and dont notice it in my cars. With my 90 re=
charged and converted to 134A. I went from 60+(r12) to exactly 32 degrees =
converted to 134a.. This is using a professional digital termometer. You us=
ally dont get this low because most shops wont take the time to get it that=
cold...or R134a.... Radio Shack has a cheep $5 temp guage...digital.
=20
I'd bet you have a leak...Although beleive it or not I have been told a bad=
ground can cause that sort of symptom. It is afterall an electromagnetic c=
lutch of sorts...Good luck.
=20
You can CERTAINLY get below 40 Degrees using 134A. Again. im at 32...
=20

-------------- Original message --------------=20


Unfortunately, I share the same procedure....my temps is with a meat therm=
ometer as well.=20

-Mike=20

-----Original Message-----=20
From: Josh D=20
To: Burgess, Michael L.=20
Cc: (email redacted)=20
Sent: 7/15/2005 5:23 PM=20
Subject: Re: [npc] r12 vs 134a in cabin temps=20

I should clarify - 35 wasn't my ambient cabin temp. That was with a=20
meat thermometer stuck down the vent. I haven't measured the ambient=20
cabin temp though I'm sure it's significantly warmer.=20


On 7/15/05, Burgess, Michael L. <(email redacted)>=20
wrote:=20
>=20=20
>=20
> Ok so I throw the gauge (low side is all I have) on my car.=20
>=20
> 100psi when the car is off! omg.=20
>=20
> When the car is running (ac full blast, idle set to 1500rpm), the=20
compressor=20
> kicks on when the needle of the pressure gauge approaches zero.=20
>=20
> The pressure builds in teh system until about 45psi and then shuts=20
off. The=20
> pressure lowers towards zero until the compressor kicks on again.=20
>=20
> The cycling happens maybe 3 times a minute max.=20
>=20
> Any advice? I tried to call places but they all turn me down b/c of=20
> 'contamination' garbage.=20
>=20
> Thanks,=20
> Mike, still at 58*F :-(=20
>=20=20
>=20
> -----Original Message-----=20
> From: Josh D=20
> To: Burgess, Michael L.=20
> Cc: (email redacted)=20
> Sent: 7/15/2005 3:03 PM=20
> Subject: Re: [npc] r12 vs 134a in cabin temps=20
>=20
> My 90 still has the r12 system and everything works great on it.=20
> Recharged it earlier this summer and got a reading right around 35*.=20
>=20
> On 7/15/05, Burgess, Michael L.=20
> <(email redacted)>=20
> wrote:=20
> >=20=20
> >=20
> > Hello! I'm curious what everyone's a/c (if equipped) is putting=20
out.=20
> >=20
> > I'm just looking for answers please, if you know them, much=20
> appreciated.=20
> >=20
> > year, a/c temp, coolant, original?, why not?=20
> >=20
> > r12 systems (i've heard can go down into the 30s!):=20
> > i.e. 1991, 58*F, r134a retro, yes (r12 compressor/condensor)=20
> >=20
> > r134a systems:=20
> > i.e. 1997, 45*f, r134a=20
> >=20
> > Other car's input is welcome too. My buick regal 1998, cools down=20
to=20
> 47*F=20
> > when full a/c is on.=20
> >=20=20
> >=20
> > If anyone has any input, this is much appreciated. I have a=20
somewhat=20
> > working r12 system on my miata, and also have a complete system from=20
a=20
> 1997,=20
> > and I am trying to figure out if I am dealing with the 'diminishing=20
> returns'=20
> > problem here. If I can only get 5*F less out of 134a---I don't=20
really=20
> feel=20
> > like pulling the compressor and messing with everything just to do=20
so.=20
>=20
> >=20
> > Much appreciated!=20
> >=20
> > -Mike=20
> >=20
> ______________________________________________________________________=20
> > This email has been scanned by the MessageLabs Email Security=20
System.=20
> > This message and any files transmitted with it are confidential and=20

> are=20
> > solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom they are=20
> addressed.=20
> > If you=20
> > have received this e-mail in error, please notify=20
> > (email redacted).=20
> >=20
> ____________________________________________________________________=20
> >=20=20
>=20=20
>=20
> --=20
> Josh=20
> '90 Crystal White=20
> Miata #512=20
> Air Capital Miata Club=20
> aircapitalmiataclub.com/=20
>=20
> ______________________________________________________________________=20
> This email has been scanned by the MessageLabs Email Security System.=20
> For more information please visit=20
> messagelabs.com/email=20
> ______________________________________________________________________=20
>=20
> This email has been scanned by the MessageLabs Email Security System.=20
> This message and any files transmitted with it are confidential and=20
are=20
> solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom they are=20
addressed.=20
> If you=20
> have received this e-mail in error, please notify=20
> (email redacted).=20
> ____________________________________________________________________=20
>=20=20


--=20
Josh=20
'90 Crystal White=20
Miata #512=20
Air Capital Miata Club=20
aircapitalmiataclub.com/=20

______________________________________________________________________=20
This email has been scanned by the MessageLabs Email Security System.=20
For more information please visit messagelabs.com/email=20


______________________________________________________________________
This email has been scanned by the MessageLabs Email Security System.
This message and any files transmitted with it are confidential and are
solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom they are addressed. =
If you=20
have received this e-mail in error, please notify (email redacted)=
ssenkrupp.com.
____________________________________________________________________

This read-only message was archived from a public mail list.
Mail From: "Burgess, Michael L." <(email redacted)>

I will respond later tonight. My 134a stuff is all packed away.

-Mike

-----Original Message-----
From: Chad J. Douglas [mailto:(email redacted)]
Sent: Monday, July 18, 2005 10:22 PM
To: Jim B; (email redacted); Burgess, Michael L.; Josh D
Cc: (email redacted)
Subject: RE: [npc] r12 vs 134a in cabin temps


I have a spare R12 condenser in my garage. It's DEFINATELY less dense than
the 134 unit.

Burgess has both condenser types as well... Do you concur, sir?

-----Original Message-----
From: Jim B [mailto:(email redacted)]
Sent: Monday, July 18, 2005 10:37 AM
To: Chad J. Douglas; (email redacted); Burgess, Michael L.; Josh D
Cc: (email redacted)
Subject: RE: [npc] r12 vs 134a in cabin temps


Did Mazda change the condenser when they went to 134 in '94? I checked the
replacement condenser part numbers for 90-93 and 94+ from internet auto part
suppliers and they are the same part number. But they show different for
'99+

When I changed to 134 I swapped in a 134 compressor with hose. Replaced
seals and drier. 3 years later it still works great, but I spent time
tweaking it. But I always wondered if the condenser was different and would
make any difference.

JimB

"Chad J. Douglas" <(email redacted)> wrote:

I wouldnt want 32 degree air. Why?

Any moisture in the air is going to try to freeze on the evaporator. Most
A/C setups stop when it gets to just around 40. That's plenty cold, and
you don't get icing or fog.

The low pressure switch on your system is designed to measure the pressure
of R12 before cutting the compressor off. And, if you had R12 in there
(instead of 134) you'd likely get the 38-40 degree mark like your old car.

Maybe you don't live in a very humid area, or maybe you don't run your air
for long enough, but you would eventually ice the evaporator if you operated
your 32 degree A/C in Cincinnati (75+% humidity)

The only time there's no major difference between R12 and R134a is when you
have 2 systems that were designed for that particular refrigerant.
Generally R134-converted R12 setups are less efficient. This results in
either: 1. Air that's not as cold as the R12 was or 2. The system is working
harder.

This is mostly due to the fact that the condenser in an R12 system is
smaller (maybe not physically, but in terms of heat transfer) and so it
can't shed as much heat to the air as an R134a condenser.

So, you either have to run the compressor more (stealing engine power) or
deal with warmer air do to the condenser's inability to shed the heat.

R134 condensers are much more dense and can transfer much more heat to the
air than the R12 unit can. Just look at the 2 condensers dide by side,
you'll see the difference easily.

There is a difference in the refrigerant. R12 can absorb more heat in its
phase change frm liquid to gas than R134a can, so the difference comes in
putting a larger condenser (and other components got tweaked too) to shed
the heat and cycle the refrigerant back.

Oh god. I'm rambling. I'll stop now.

Chad

-----Original Message-----
From: (email redacted) [mailto:(email redacted)]
Sent: Sunday, July 17, 2005 11:02 PM
To: Burgess, Michael L.; 'Josh D '; Burgess, Michael L.
Cc: '(email redacted) '
Subject: RE: [npc] r12 vs 134a in cabin temps


I have a 89 and 90 Miata. The AC worked on it (89) for nearly 6 years and
was always a consistant 38 Degrees (r12). Eventually I topped it off (Father
does AC) Although I installed this myself (C package). My second (90) was
60+ when I purchased it. As far as I understand there should be no major
difference between R12 and 134A and dont notice it in my cars. With my 90
recharged and converted to 134A. I went from 60+(r12) to exactly 32 degrees
converted to 134a.. This is using a professional digital termometer. You
usally dont get this low because most shops wont take the time to get it
that cold...or R134a.... Radio Shack has a cheep $5 temp guage...digital.

I'd bet you have a leak...Although beleive it or not I have been told a bad
ground can cause that sort of symptom. It is afterall an electromagnetic
clutch of sorts...Good luck.

You can CERTAINLY get below 40 Degrees using 134A. Again. im at 32...


-------------- Original message --------------


Unfortunately, I share the same procedure....my temps is with a meat
thermometer as well.

-Mike

-----Original Message-----
From: Josh D
To: Burgess, Michael L.
Cc: (email redacted)
Sent: 7/15/2005 5:23 PM
Subject: Re: [npc] r12 vs 134a in cabin temps

I should clarify - 35 wasn't my ambient cabin temp. That was with a
meat thermometer stuck down the vent. I haven't measured the ambient
cabin temp though I'm sure it's significantly warmer.


On 7/15/05, Burgess, Michael L. <(email redacted)>
wrote:
>
>
> Ok so I throw the gauge (low side is all I have) on my car.
>
> 100psi when the car is off! omg.
>
> When the car is running (ac full blast, idle set to 1500rpm), the
compressor
> kicks on when the needle of the pressure gauge approaches zero.
>
> The pressure builds in teh system until about 45psi and then shuts
off. The
> pressure lowers towards zero until the compressor kicks on again.
>
> The cycling happens maybe 3 times a minute max.
>
> Any advice? I tried to call places but they all turn me down b/c of
> 'contamination' garbage.
>
> Thanks,
> Mike, still at 58*F :-(
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Josh D
> To: Burgess, Michael L.
> Cc: (email redacted)
> Sent: 7/15/2005 3:03 PM
> Subject: Re: [npc] r12 vs 134a in cabin temps
>
> My 90 still has the r12 system and everything works great on it.
> Recharged it earlier this summer and got a reading right around 35*.
>
> On 7/15/05, Burgess, Michael L.
> <(email redacted)>
> wrote:
> >
> >
> > Hello! I'm curious what everyone's a/c (if equipped) is putting
out.
> >
> > I'm just looking for answers please, if you know them, much
> appreciated.
> >
> > year, a/c temp, coolant, original?, why not?
> >
> > r12 systems (i've heard can go down into the 30s!):
> > i.e. 1991, 58*F, r134a retro, yes (r12 compressor/condensor)
> >
> > r134a systems:
> > i.e. 1997, 45*f, r134a
> >
> > Other car's input is welcome too. My buick regal 1998, cools down
to
> 47*F
> > when full a/c is on.
> >
> >
> > If anyone has any input, this is much appreciated. I have a
somewhat
> > working r12 system on my miata, and also have a complete system from
a
> 1997,
> > and I am trying to figure out if I am dealing with the 'diminishing
> returns'
> > problem here. If I can only get 5*F less out of 134a---I don't
really
> feel
> > like pulling the compressor and messing with everything just to do
so.
>
> >
> > Much appreciated!
> >
> > -Mike
> >
> ______________________________________________________________________
> > This email has been scanned by the MessageLabs Email Security
System.
> > This message and any files transmitted with it are confidential and

> are
> > solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom they are
> addressed.
> > If you
> > have received this e-mail in error, please notify
> > (email redacted).
> >
> ____________________________________________________________________
> >
>
>
> --
> Josh
> '90 Crystal White
> Miata #512
> Air Capital Miata Club
> aircapitalmiataclub.com/ <aircapitalmiataclub.com/>

>
> ______________________________________________________________________
> This email has been scanned by the MessageLabs Email Security System.
> For more information please visit
> messagelabs.com/email <messagelabs.com/email>
> ______________________________________________________________________
>
> This email has been scanned by the MessageLabs Email Security System.
> This message and any files transmitted with it are confidential and
are
> solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom they are
addressed.
> If you
> have received this e-mail in error, please notify
> (email redacted).
> ____________________________________________________________________
>


--
Josh
'90 Crystal White
Miata #512
Air Capital Miata Club
aircapitalmiataclub.com/ <aircapitalmiataclub.com/>

______________________________________________________________________
This email has been scanned by the MessageLabs Email Security System.
For more information please visit messagelabs.com/email
<messagelabs.com/email>


______________________________________________________________________
This email has been scanned by the MessageLabs Email Security System.
This message and any files transmitted with it are confidential and are
solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom they are addressed.
If you
have received this e-mail in error, please notify
(email redacted).
____________________________________________________________________



______________________________________________________________________
This email has been scanned by the MessageLabs Email Security System.
For more information please visit messagelabs.com/email




______________________________________________________________________
This email has been scanned by the MessageLabs Email Security System.
This message and any files transmitted with it are confidential and are
solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom they are addressed. If you
have received this e-mail in error, please notify (email redacted).
____________________________________________________________________