Miatapower List Archive

This read-only message was archived from a public mail list.
Mail From: Jason C <(email redacted)>

A lot of people seem to have this problem (though not me)....I want to unde=
rstand why some do and some don't. =A0 Some do despite the fancy serrated F=
M washers.Do FM see this problem?

This read-only message was archived from a public mail list.
Mail From: Emilio - 949Racing <(email redacted)>

My experience has been that its more the studs backing out. So even, stage =
8's, Nordlocks, safety wire and what not doesn't always fix it. Someone at =
MRLS mentioned that FM may be switching to or optionally offering 10mm stud=
s with their kits. The extra surface area does seem to make them stay put l=
onger. 10m studs have been de rigueur for turbo Miatas that see a lot of tr=
ack use but its trickling down to street cars slower it seems. I haven't =
tried green, hi temp cylindrical bonding Loctite but that might help. Anoth=
er fix might be staking them, but that may raise cracking issues with cast =
manifolds.=0A=0AJason, you don't track your car do you? That's when stuff f=
alls off :) I've seen daily driven turbo cars that have never had an an iss=
ue on the street, not make one session at the track before a stud or two ba=
cks out.=0A=0ABut to answer your question yes, it's endemic for turbo track=
miatas.=0A=0A =0AEmilio Cervantes=0Awww.949Racing.com=0A26242 Dimension Dr=
#130=0ALake Forest, CA 92630=0A949.716.3111 phone / fax=0A=0A=0AOn 2009-04=
-02 03:05, Jason C wrote: =0A> A lot of people seem to=0Ahave this problem =
(though not me)....I want to understand why some do and some=0Adon't. =C2 =
Some do despite the fancy serrated FM washers.Do FM see this=0Aproblem?

This read-only message was archived from a public mail list.
Mail From: "Bill Cardell" <(email redacted)>

We have had studs come out, mainly on track driven cars. I'd have to =
disagree about the stage 8s, though. They also address the stud coming =
out.
=20

TurboDog's Dad=20
Bill Cardell=20
www.flyinmiata.com=20
1-800-FLY-MX5S=20
970-464-5600 tech support=20
Don't miss our Summer Camp! August 6-9=20

=20

________________________________

From: (email redacted) =
[mailto:(email redacted)] On Behalf Of Emilio - =
949Racing
Sent: Wednesday, April 01, 2009 9:40 PM
To: MiataPower
Subject: Re: loosening turbo to mani and turbo to d/p nuts


My experience has been that its more the studs backing out. So even, =
stage 8's, Nordlocks, safety wire and what not doesn't always fix it. =
Someone at MRLS mentioned that FM may be switching to or optionally =
offering 10mm studs with their kits. The extra surface area does seem to =
make them stay put longer. 10m studs have been de rigueur for turbo =
Miatas that see a lot of track use but its trickling down to street =
cars slower it seems. I haven't tried green, hi temp cylindrical bonding =
Loctite but that might help. Another fix might be staking them, but that =
may raise cracking issues with cast manifolds.

Jason, you don't track your car do you? That's when stuff falls off :) =
I've seen daily driven turbo cars that have never had an an issue on the =
street, not make one session at the track before a stud or two backs =
out.

But to answer your question yes, it's endemic for turbo track miatas.

=20

Emilio Cervantes
www.949Racing.com <949racing.com/>=20
26242 Dimension Dr #130
Lake Forest, CA 92630
949.716.3111 phone / fax
=09
=09

On 2009-04-02 03:05, Jason C wrote:=20
> A lot of people seem to have this problem (though not me)....I want =
to understand why some do and some don't. =C2 Some do despite the fancy =
serrated FM washers.Do FM see this problem?

This read-only message was archived from a public mail list.
Mail From: Emilio - 949Racing <(email redacted)>

That's good news. I'll start recommending them if it's=A0proven fix to the =
stud problem.=A0I'd heard the stage 8's were rather tricky to get installed=
.=A0=0AEmilio Cervantes=0Awww.949Racing.com=0A26242 Dimension Dr #130=0ALak=
e Forest, CA 92630=0A949.716.3111 phone / fax=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A_______________=
_________________=0AFrom: Bill Cardell <(email redacted)>=0ATo: Emilio -=
949Racing <(email redacted)>; MiataPower <(email redacted)>=0A=
Sent: Wednesday, April 1, 2009 10:04:08 PM=0ASubject: RE: loosening turbo t=
o mani and turbo to d/p nuts=0A=0A=0AWe have had studs come out, mainly on =
track driven cars. I'd have to disagree about the stage 8s, though. They al=
so address the stud coming out.=0A=0ATurboDog's Dad =0ABill Cardell =0Awww.=
flyinmiata.com =0A1-800-FLY-MX5S =0A970-464-5600 tech support =0ADon't miss=
our Summer Camp! August 6-9 =0A=0A=0A=0A________________________________=
=0AFrom: (email redacted) [mailto:miatapower-bounces@miata=
power.net] On Behalf Of Emilio - 949Racing=0ASent: Wednesday, April 01, 200=
9 9:40 PM=0ATo: MiataPower=0ASubject: Re: loosening turbo to mani and turbo=
to d/p nuts=0A=0A=0AMy experience has been that its more the studs backing=
out. So even, stage 8's, Nordlocks, safety wire and what not doesn't alway=
s fix it. Someone at MRLS mentioned that FM may be switching to or optional=
ly offering 10mm studs with their kits. The extra surface area does seem to=
make them stay put longer. 10m studs have been de rigueur for turbo Miatas=
that see a lot of track use=A0 but=A0 its trickling down to street cars sl=
ower it seems. I haven't tried green, hi temp cylindrical bonding Loctite b=
ut that might help. Another fix might be staking them, but that may raise c=
racking issues with cast manifolds.=0A=0AJason, you don't track your car do=
you? That's when stuff falls off :) I've seen daily driven turbo cars that=
have never had an an issue on the street, not make one session at the trac=
k before a stud or two backs out.=0A=0ABut to answer your question yes, it'=
s endemic for turbo track miatas.=0A=0A=0AEmilio Cervantes=0Awww.949Racing.=
com=0A26242 Dimension Dr #130=0ALake Forest, CA 92630=0A949.716.3111 phone =
/ fax=0A=0A=0AOn 2009-04-02 03:05, Jason C wrote: =0A> A lot of people seem=
to have this problem (though not me)....I want to understand why some do a=
nd some don't. =C2=A0 Some do despite the fancy serrated FM washers.Do FM s=
ee this problem?

This read-only message was archived from a public mail list.
Mail From: Jason C <(email redacted)>

I do track my car.What do OEM's do?


--- On Wed, 4/1/09, Emilio - 949Racing <(email redacted)> wrote:
From: Emilio - 949Racing <(email redacted)>
Subject: Re: loosening turbo to mani and turbo to d/p nuts
To: "MiataPower" <(email redacted)>
Date: Wednesday, April 1, 2009, 10:37 PM


That's good news. I'll start recommending them if it's=A0proven fix to the =
stud problem.=A0I'd heard the stage 8's were rather tricky to get installed=
.=A0
























Emilio Cervantes
www.949Racing.com
26242 Dimension Dr #130
Lake Forest, CA 92630
949.716.3111 phone / fax






From: Bill Cardell <(email redacted)>
To: Emilio - 949Racing <(email redacted)>; MiataPower <miatapower@miatap=
ower.net>
Sent: Wednesday, April 1, 2009 10:04:08 PM
Subject: RE: loosening turbo to mani and turbo to d/p nuts


#yiv533531395 DIV {
MARGIN:0px;}


We have had studs come out, mainly on track driven cars. I'd have to disagr=
ee about the stage 8s, though. They also address the stud coming out.
=A0
TurboDog's Dad=20
Bill Cardell=20
www.flyinmiata.com=20
1-800-FLY-MX5S=20
970-464-5600 tech support=20
Don't miss our Summer Camp! August 6-9=20
=A0



From: (email redacted) [mailto:miatapower-bounces@miatapow=
er.net] On Behalf Of Emilio - 949Racing
Sent: Wednesday, April 01, 2009 9:40 PM
To: MiataPower
Subject: Re: loosening turbo to mani and turbo to d/p nuts



My experience has been that its more the studs backing out. So even, stage =
8's, Nordlocks, safety wire and what not doesn't always fix it. Someone at =
MRLS mentioned that FM may be switching to or optionally offering 10mm stud=
s with their kits. The extra surface area does seem to make them stay put l=
onger. 10m studs have been de rigueur for turbo Miatas that see a lot of tr=
ack use=A0 but=A0 its trickling down to street cars slower it seems. I have=
n't tried green, hi temp cylindrical bonding Loctite but that might help. A=
nother fix might be staking them, but that may raise cracking issues with c=
ast manifolds.

Jason, you don't track your car do you? That's when stuff falls off :) I've=
seen daily driven turbo cars that have never had an an issue on the street=
, not make one session at the track before a stud or two backs out.

But to answer your
question yes, it's endemic for turbo track miatas.

=A0
























Emilio Cervantes
www.949Racing.com
26242 Dimension Dr #130
Lake Forest, CA 92630
949.716.3111 phone / fax


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On 2009-04-02 03:05, Jason C wrote:=20
> A lot of people seem to have this problem (though not me)....I want to un=
derstand why some do and some don't. =C2=A0 Some do despite the fancy serra=
ted FM washers.Do FM see this problem?


_______________________________________________
Miatapower mailing list
(email redacted)
list.miatapower.net/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/miatapower

This read-only message was archived from a public mail list.
Mail From: "Bob Bundy" <(email redacted)>

Anybody use these studs? They have self locking threads on one end. I =
plan to use 10mm self locking thread studs and the wedge lock washers =
when I put things back together.=20

mcmaster.com/#self-locking-threaded-studs/=3D19k229

Driven on the street I never have a problem. lots of track duty and =
everything goes wrong.=20

Bob


----- Original Message -----=20
From: Bill Cardell=20
To: Emilio - 949Racing ; MiataPower=20
Sent: Wednesday, April 01, 2009 10:04 PM
Subject: RE: loosening turbo to mani and turbo to d/p nuts


We have had studs come out, mainly on track driven cars. I'd have to =
disagree about the stage 8s, though. They also address the stud coming =
out.

TurboDog's Dad=20
Bill Cardell=20
www.flyinmiata.com=20
1-800-FLY-MX5S=20
970-464-5600 tech support=20
Don't miss our Summer Camp! August 6-9=20





-------------------------------------------------------------------------=
-----
From: (email redacted) =
[mailto:(email redacted)] On Behalf Of Emilio - =
949Racing
Sent: Wednesday, April 01, 2009 9:40 PM
To: MiataPower
Subject: Re: loosening turbo to mani and turbo to d/p nuts


My experience has been that its more the studs backing out. So even, =
stage 8's, Nordlocks, safety wire and what not doesn't always fix it. =
Someone at MRLS mentioned that FM may be switching to or optionally =
offering 10mm studs with their kits. The extra surface area does seem to =
make them stay put longer. 10m studs have been de rigueur for turbo =
Miatas that see a lot of track use but its trickling down to street =
cars slower it seems. I haven't tried green, hi temp cylindrical bonding =
Loctite but that might help. Another fix might be staking them, but that =
may raise cracking issues with cast manifolds.

Jason, you don't track your car do you? That's when stuff falls off :) =
I've seen daily driven turbo cars that have never had an an issue on the =
street, not make one session at the track before a stud or two backs =
out.

But to answer your question yes, it's endemic for turbo track miatas.


Emilio Cervantes
www.949Racing.com
26242 Dimension Dr #130
Lake Forest, CA 92630
949.716.3111 phone / fax


On 2009-04-02 03:05, Jason C wrote:=20
> A lot of people seem to have this problem (though not me)....I =
want to understand why some do and some don't. =C2 Some do despite the =
fancy serrated FM washers.Do FM see this problem?







-------------------------------------------------------------------------=
-----


_______________________________________________
Miatapower mailing list
(email redacted)
list.miatapower.net/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/miatapower

This read-only message was archived from a public mail list.
Mail From: (email redacted)

I had them put on minime's head studs and NONE of them came loose after nea=
rly 8k miles and about 10 track events. On the turbo and DP I was only usin=
g standard stover nuts on 8mm studs, but none of them backed out. Just last=
week I drilled out FrankenBRG's manifold and installed new 10mm studs for =
the turbo mount and am using Stage8 fasteners for the turbo mount as well a=
s the manifold to head mount(as I had on minime) - they were very easy to i=
nstall.=20

Myron Ybarra has had them on his manifold for several years now(lots of tra=
ck events) and none of them have backed out.=20

Also(and I don't know why they don't state this on their website), but the =
locking retainers have a neat feature - if you flip them over they are offs=
et 13 degrees, so you should have little issue getting them abutted=20

-Mike=20

----- Original Message -----=20
From: "Emilio - 949Racing" <(email redacted)>=20
To: "MiataPower" <(email redacted)>=20
Sent: Wednesday, April 1, 2009 10:37:14 PM GMT -08:00 US/Canada Pacific=20
Subject: Re: loosening turbo to mani and turbo to d/p nuts=20




That's good news. I'll start recommending them if it's proven fix to the st=
ud problem. I'd heard the stage 8's were rather tricky to get installed.=20

























Emilio Cervantes=20
www.949Racing.com=20
26242 Dimension Dr #130=20
Lake Forest, CA 92630=20
949.716.3111 phone / fax=20





From: Bill Cardell <(email redacted)>=20
To: Emilio - 949Racing <(email redacted)>; MiataPower <miatapower@miatap=
ower.net>=20
Sent: Wednesday, April 1, 2009 10:04:08 PM=20
Subject: RE: loosening turbo to mani and turbo to d/p nuts=20


We have had studs come out, mainly on track driven cars. I'd have to disagr=
ee about the stage 8s, though. They also address the stud coming out.=20


TurboDog's Dad=20
Bill Cardell=20
www.flyinmiata.com=20
1-800-FLY-MX5S=20
970-464-5600 tech support=20
Don't miss our Summer Camp! August 6-9=20



From: (email redacted) [mailto:miatapower-bounces@miatapow=
er.net] On Behalf Of Emilio - 949Racing=20
Sent: Wednesday, April 01, 2009 9:40 PM=20
To: MiataPower=20
Subject: Re: loosening turbo to mani and turbo to d/p nuts=20



My experience has been that its more the studs backing out. So even, stage =
8's, Nordlocks, safety wire and what not doesn't always fix it. Someone at =
MRLS mentioned that FM may be switching to or optionally offering 10mm stud=
s with their kits. The extra surface area does seem to make them stay put l=
onger. 10m studs have been de rigueur for turbo Miatas that see a lot of tr=
ack use but its trickling down to street cars slower it seems. I haven't tr=
ied green, hi temp cylindrical bonding Loctite but that might help. Another=
fix might be staking them, but that may raise cracking issues with cast ma=
nifolds.=20

Jason, you don't track your car do you? That's when stuff falls off :) I've=
seen daily driven turbo cars that have never had an an issue on the street=
, not make one session at the track before a stud or two backs out.=20

But to answer your question yes, it's endemic for turbo track miatas.=20



























Emilio Cervantes=20
www.949Racing.com=20
26242 Dimension Dr #130=20
Lake Forest, CA 92630=20
949.716.3111 phone / fax=20



On 2009-04-02 03:05 , Jason C wrote:=20
> A lot of people seem to have this problem (though not me)....I want to un=
derstand why some do and some don't. =C3=82 Some do despite the fancy serra=
ted FM washers.Do FM see this problem?=20



_______________________________________________ Miatapower mailing list Mia=
(email redacted) list.miatapower.net/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/=
miatapower

This read-only message was archived from a public mail list.
Mail From: (email redacted)

I have fought this issue for many years. I have installed bigger studs =
and
used all manners of locking devices and compounds and nothing has solve=
d
the problem. I can drive on the street for miles and miles with no prob=
lems
but a track day brings it right back. I am convinced that the problem i=
s
not with the studs or nuts backing out(because I am sure I prevented th=
at)
but with the studs stretching under the high heat loads seen on track. =
I
even spoke to ARP about getting some custom studs made from inconel. I
think that would solve the problem but the cost was nuts. My final solu=
tion
to this issue was to build a V8 RX7 for track use.

Steve

Things I have tried:

3/8 studs
Safety wire
High temp thread locker - (2000 degrees aircraft shit $$$$)
Nordlocks
Best studs I could find - (ARP header studs)


=

Emilio - =

949Racing =

<emilio700@yahoo. =
To
com> MiataPower =

Sent by: <(email redacted)> =

miatapower-bounce =
cc
(email redacted) =

Subj=
ect
Re: loosening turbo to mani and =

04/01/2009 11:39 turbo to d/p nuts =

PM =

=

=

=

=

=





My experience has been that its more the studs backing out. So even, st=
age
8's, Nordlocks, safety wire and what not doesn't always fix it. Someone=
at
MRLS mentioned that FM may be switching to or optionally offering 10mm
studs with their kits. The extra surface area does seem to make them st=
ay
put longer. 10m studs have been de rigueur for turbo Miatas that see a =
lot
of track use but its trickling down to street cars slower it seems. I=

haven't tried green, hi temp cylindrical bonding Loctite but that might=

help. Another fix might be staking them, but that may raise cracking is=
sues
with cast manifolds.

Jason, you don't track your car do you? That's when stuff falls off :) =
I've
seen daily driven turbo cars that have never had an an issue on the str=
eet,
not make one session at the track before a stud or two backs out.

But to answer your question yes, it's endemic for turbo track miatas.

Emilio Cervantes
www.949Racing.com
26242 Dimension Dr #130
Lake Forest, CA 92630
949.716.3111 phone / fax

On 2009-04-02 03:05, Jason C wrote:
> A lot of people seem to have this problem (though not me)....I =
want
to understand why some do and some don't. =C2 Some do despite th=
e
fancy serrated FM washers.Do FM see this problem?



______________________________________________________________________
This email has been scanned by the MessageLabs Email Security System.
For more information please visit messagelabs.com/email
______________________________________________________________________
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=

This read-only message was archived from a public mail list.
Mail From: Mark Rieb <(email redacted)>

<html><HEAD><LINK media=3Dall href=3D"/webmail/static/deg/css/wysiwyg-39332=
89048.css" type=3Dtext/css rel=3Dstylesheet>
<META content=3D"MSHTML 6.00.5730.13" name=3DGENERATOR></HEAD>
<BODY>
<DIV>Inconel would expand even more and cause more of a problem.&nbsp; The =
coefficient of thermal expansion for all of the stainless steels (304, 316,=
320, inconel, hastalloy, etc.) is nearly double that for the carbon steels=
.</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>The Mitsubishi world has the same issues, with the added problem of sh=
earing off the endmost studs from the differences in thermal expansion betw=
een the aluminum head and cast iron exhaust manifold - the newer cars use a=
larger stud in the endmost holes.&nbsp; At one point I was using a bellevi=
lle ("wavey") washer and wide based locking nuts from BMW to keep things to=
gether on an engine that was taxing the max flow of a 16g turbo.&nbsp; The =
Belleville washer keeps tension on the joint when the stud expands.</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>Mark<BR><BR><BR>Apr 2, 2009 06:33:29 AM, <A class=3DparsedEmail href=
=3D"mailto:(email redacted)" target=3D_blank>stephen.m.clancey=
@cummins.com</A> wrote:<BR></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: rgb(102,153,204) 3px solid">I have fought=
this issue for many years. I have installed bigger studs and<BR>used all m=
anners of locking devices and compounds and nothing has solved<BR>the probl=
em. I can drive on the street for miles and miles with no problems<BR>but a=
track day brings it right back. I am convinced that the problem is<BR>not =
with the studs or nuts backing out(because I am sure I prevented that)<BR>b=
ut with the studs stretching under the high heat loads seen on track. I<BR>=
even spoke to ARP about getting some custom studs made from inconel. I<BR>t=
hink that would solve the problem but the cost was nuts. My final solution<=
BR>to this issue was to build a V8 RX7 for track use.<BR><BR>Steve<BR><BR>T=
hings I have tried:<BR><BR>3/8 studs<BR>Safety wire<BR>High temp thread loc=
ker - (2000 degrees aircraft shit $$$$)<BR>Nordlocks<BR>Best studs I could =
find - (ARP header studs)<BR><BR><BR><BR>Emilio - <BR>949Racing <BR><IILIO7=
00@YAHOO. <br To />com&gt; MiataPower <BR>Sent by: &lt;<A class=3D"parsedEm=
ail parsedEmail" href=3D"mailto:(email redacted)" target=3D_blank>=
(email redacted)</A>&gt; <BR>miatapower-bounce cc <BR><A class=3D"=
parsedEmail parsedEmail" href=3D"mailto:(email redacted)" target=3D_blank>s=
@miatapower.net</A> <BR>Subject <BR>Re: loosening turbo to mani and <BR>04/=
01/2009 11:39 turbo to d/p nuts <BR>PM <BR><BR><BR><BR><BR><BR><BR><BR><BR>=
<BR>My experience has been that its more the studs backing out. So even, st=
age<BR>8's, Nordlocks, safety wire and what not doesn't always fix it. Some=
one at<BR>MRLS mentioned that FM may be switching to or optionally offering=
10mm<BR>studs with their kits. The extra surface area does seem to make th=
em stay<BR>put longer. 10m studs have been de rigueur for turbo Miatas that=
see a lot<BR>of track use but its trickling down to street cars slower it =
seems. I<BR>haven't tried green, hi temp cylindrical bonding Loctite but th=
at might<BR>help. Another fix might be staking them, but that may raise cra=
cking issues<BR>with cast manifolds.<BR><BR>Jason, you don't track your car=
do you? That's when stuff falls off :) I've<BR>seen daily driven turbo car=
s that have never had an an issue on the street,<BR>not make one session at=
the track before a stud or two backs out.<BR><BR>But to answer your questi=
on yes, it's endemic for turbo track miatas.<BR><BR>Emilio Cervantes<BR><A =
class=3DparsedLink href=3D"949Racing.com" target=3D_blank>www.94=
9Racing.com</A><BR>26242 Dimension Dr #130<BR>Lake Forest, CA 92630<BR>949.=
716.3111 phone / fax<BR><BR>On 2009-04-02 03:05, Jason C wrote:<BR>&gt; A l=
ot of people seem to have this problem (though not me)....I want<BR>to unde=
rstand why some do and some don't. =C3=82 Some do despite the<BR>fancy serr=
ated FM washers.Do FM see this problem?<BR><BR><BR><BR>____________________=
__________________________________________________<BR>This email has been s=
canned by the MessageLabs Email Security System.<BR>For more information pl=
ease visit <A class=3DparsedLink href=3D"messagelabs.com/email" =
target=3D_blank>messagelabs.com/email</A><BR>___________________=
___________________________________________________<BR>____________________=
___________________________<BR>Miatapower mailing list<BR><A class=3D"parse=
dEmail parsedEmail" href=3D"mailto:(email redacted)" target=3D_bla=
nk>(email redacted)</A><BR><A class=3DparsedLink href=3D"li=
st.miatapower.net/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/miatapower" target=3D_blank>http=
://list.miatapower.net/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/miatapower</A><BR><BR><BR>_=
______________________________________________<BR>Miatapower mailing list<B=
R><A class=3D"parsedEmail parsedEmail" href=3D"mailto:Miatapower@miatapower=
.net" target=3D_blank>(email redacted)</A><BR><A class=3DparsedLin=
k href=3D"list.miatapower.net/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/miatapower" t=
arget=3D_blank>list.miatapower.net/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/miatapow=
er</A><BR></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></html>

This read-only message was archived from a public mail list.
Mail From: "Bob Bundy" <(email redacted)>

In the world of heavy trucks they get around the stud loosening issues =
by using longer studs. They add about a 2" long spacer under the nut. =
This effectively lowers the spring rate of the stud so it can vary in =
length more with thermal expansion and still keep clamp load. A good =
portion of the stud is further away from the heat source as well so it =
doesn't expand as much as the parts being held together.

I have countersunk my manifold to turbo to manifold stud holes so I get =
about 12mm more grip length I think it helped but it hasn't cured the =
problem.=20

Bob
----- Original Message -----=20
From: Mark Rieb=20
To: (email redacted)=20
Cc: (email redacted) ; (email redacted)=20
Sent: Thursday, April 02, 2009 6:43 AM
Subject: Re: Re: loosening turbo to mani and turbo to d/p nuts


Inconel would expand even more and cause more of a problem. The =
coefficient of thermal expansion for all of the stainless steels (304, =
316, 320, inconel, hastalloy, etc.) is nearly double that for the carbon =
steels.

The Mitsubishi world has the same issues, with the added problem of =
shearing off the endmost studs from the differences in thermal expansion =
between the aluminum head and cast iron exhaust manifold - the newer =
cars use a larger stud in the endmost holes. At one point I was using a =
belleville ("wavey") washer and wide based locking nuts from BMW to keep =
things together on an engine that was taxing the max flow of a 16g =
turbo. The Belleville washer keeps tension on the joint when the stud =
expands.

Mark


Apr 2, 2009 06:33:29 AM, (email redacted) wrote:

I have fought this issue for many years. I have installed bigger =
studs and
used all manners of locking devices and compounds and nothing has =
solved
the problem. I can drive on the street for miles and miles with no =
problems
but a track day brings it right back. I am convinced that the =
problem is
not with the studs or nuts backing out(because I am sure I prevented =
that)
but with the studs stretching under the high heat loads seen on =
track. I
even spoke to ARP about getting some custom studs made from inconel. =
I
think that would solve the problem but the cost was nuts. My final =
solution
to this issue was to build a V8 RX7 for track use.

Steve

Things I have tried:

3/8 studs
Safety wire
High temp thread locker - (2000 degrees aircraft shit $$$$)
Nordlocks
Best studs I could find - (ARP header studs)



Emilio -=20
949Racing=20
com> MiataPower=20
Sent by: <(email redacted)>=20
miatapower-bounce cc=20
(email redacted)=20
Subject=20
Re: loosening turbo to mani and=20
04/01/2009 11:39 turbo to d/p nuts=20
PM=20









My experience has been that its more the studs backing out. So even, =
stage
8's, Nordlocks, safety wire and what not doesn't always fix it. =
Someone at
MRLS mentioned that FM may be switching to or optionally offering =
10mm
studs with their kits. The extra surface area does seem to make them =
stay
put longer. 10m studs have been de rigueur for turbo Miatas that see =
a lot
of track use but its trickling down to street cars slower it seems. =
I
haven't tried green, hi temp cylindrical bonding Loctite but that =
might
help. Another fix might be staking them, but that may raise cracking =
issues
with cast manifolds.

Jason, you don't track your car do you? That's when stuff falls off =
:) I've
seen daily driven turbo cars that have never had an an issue on the =
street,
not make one session at the track before a stud or two backs out.

But to answer your question yes, it's endemic for turbo track =
miatas.

Emilio Cervantes
www.949Racing.com
26242 Dimension Dr #130
Lake Forest, CA 92630
949.716.3111 phone / fax

On 2009-04-02 03:05, Jason C wrote:
> A lot of people seem to have this problem (though not me)....I =
want
to understand why some do and some don't. =C3=82 Some do despite the
fancy serrated FM washers.Do FM see this problem?



=
______________________________________________________________________
This email has been scanned by the MessageLabs Email Security =
System.
For more information please visit messagelabs.com/email
=
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This read-only message was archived from a public mail list.
Mail From: Ian McCloghrie <(email redacted)>

On Apr 1, 2009 Jason C wrote:
> A lot of people seem to have this problem (though not me)....I want to unde=
> rstand why some do and some don't. =A0 Some do despite the fancy serrated F=

Strangely, this is one turbo problem I have yet to encounter, and I'm
not using anything fancy -- just basic locknuts from McMaster (not even
stainless). I only use them once, though. Lots of *other* problems at
track days, but not turbo manifold ones. :)

I've heard speculation that the problem might be related to whether or
not the holes for the studs are drilled all the way through into the
manifold, such that if there's hot exhaust gases hitting the back of the
studs it makes things worse. My CA 99 2-cat manifold has blind holes,
what are the others like?

--Ian

This read-only message was archived from a public mail list.
Mail From: (email redacted)

This explanation has occurred to me too. I know that some if not all of the
holes in my mani are through hose.



Ian McCloghrie
<ian@venus2.niceg
uyshosting.com> To
Sent by: (email redacted)
miatapower-bounce cc
(email redacted) MiataPower
<(email redacted)>
Subject
04/02/2009 11:37 Re: loosening turbo to mani and
AM turbo to d/p nuts


Please respond to
(email redacted)






On Apr 1, 2009 Jason C wrote:
> A lot of people seem to have this problem (though not me)....I want to
unde=
> rstand why some do and some don't. =A0 Some do despite the fancy serrated
F=

Strangely, this is one turbo problem I have yet to encounter, and I'm
not using anything fancy -- just basic locknuts from McMaster (not even
stainless). I only use them once, though. Lots of *other* problems at
track days, but not turbo manifold ones. :)

I've heard speculation that the problem might be related to whether or
not the holes for the studs are drilled all the way through into the
manifold, such that if there's hot exhaust gases hitting the back of the
studs it makes things worse. My CA 99 2-cat manifold has blind holes,
what are the others like?

--Ian
_______________________________________________
Miatapower mailing list
(email redacted)
list.miatapower.net/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/miatapower

______________________________________________________________________
This email has been scanned by the MessageLabs Email Security System.
For more information please visit messagelabs.com/email
______________________________________________________________________

This read-only message was archived from a public mail list.
Mail From: "M. Ybarra" <(email redacted)>

I don't know if this made any difference but when I installed the studs =
into the head, mani flange to turbo outlet and turbo exhaust outlet to =
DP, I used a stud driver and torqued them down/in to 15 ft lbs. Then I =
installed the stage 8 nuts and torqued them to spec in 2 stages =
diagonally, like you would a wheel. I believe this minimizes =
tension/preload on any one end of the flange which allows for uniform =
expansion/contraction during heat cycling. I only had one instance of =
studs backing out which was when I switched from the cast FM DP to the =
divorced Begi unit. This was due to Begi fitment issues I was dealing =
with. Once they were resolved, I reinstalled the hardware using the =
above sequence and no problems, knock on wood. I have run about 20000 =
miles in the last 4 years and about 20+ track events and the same # of =
auto X's. My Miata is not a daily driver and see's about 60% of its use =
on the track.

Myron

----- Original Message -----=20
From: (email redacted)=20
To: Emilio - 949Racing=20
Cc: MiataPower=20
Sent: Wednesday, April 01, 2009 11:23 PM
Subject: Re: loosening turbo to mani and turbo to d/p nuts


I had them put on minime's head studs and NONE of them came loose =
after nearly 8k miles and about 10 track events. On the turbo and DP I =
was only using standard stover nuts on 8mm studs, but none of them =
backed out. Just last week I drilled out FrankenBRG's manifold and =
installed new 10mm studs for the turbo mount and am using Stage8 =
fasteners for the turbo mount as well as the manifold to head mount(as I =
had on minime) - they were very easy to install.

Myron Ybarra has had them on his manifold for several years now(lots =
of track events) and none of them have backed out.

Also(and I don't know why they don't state this on their website), but =
the locking retainers have a neat feature - if you flip them over they =
are offset 13 degrees, so you should have little issue getting them =
abutted

-Mike

----- Original Message -----
From: "Emilio - 949Racing" <(email redacted)>
To: "MiataPower" <(email redacted)>
Sent: Wednesday, April 1, 2009 10:37:14 PM GMT -08:00 US/Canada =
Pacific
Subject: Re: loosening turbo to mani and turbo to d/p nuts


That's good news. I'll start recommending them if it's proven fix to =
the stud problem. I'd heard the stage 8's were rather tricky to get =
installed.=20
Emilio Cervantes
www.949Racing.com
26242 Dimension Dr #130
Lake Forest, CA 92630
949.716.3111 phone / fax





-------------------------------------------------------------------------=
-----
From: Bill Cardell <(email redacted)>
To: Emilio - 949Racing <(email redacted)>; MiataPower =
<(email redacted)>
Sent: Wednesday, April 1, 2009 10:04:08 PM
Subject: RE: loosening turbo to mani and turbo to d/p nuts


We have had studs come out, mainly on track driven cars. I'd have to =
disagree about the stage 8s, though. They also address the stud coming =
out.

TurboDog's Dad=20
Bill Cardell=20
www.flyinmiata.com=20
1-800-FLY-MX5S=20
970-464-5600 tech support=20
Don't miss our Summer Camp! August 6-9=20





-------------------------------------------------------------------------=
-----
From: (email redacted) =
[mailto:(email redacted)] On Behalf Of Emilio - =
949Racing
Sent: Wednesday, April 01, 2009 9:40 PM
To: MiataPower
Subject: Re: loosening turbo to mani and turbo to d/p nuts


My experience has been that its more the studs backing out. So even, =
stage 8's, Nordlocks, safety wire and what not doesn't always fix it. =
Someone at MRLS mentioned that FM may be switching to or optionally =
offering 10mm studs with their kits. The extra surface area does seem to =
make them stay put longer. 10m studs have been de rigueur for turbo =
Miatas that see a lot of track use but its trickling down to street =
cars slower it seems. I haven't tried green, hi temp cylindrical bonding =
Loctite but that might help. Another fix might be staking them, but that =
may raise cracking issues with cast manifolds.

Jason, you don't track your car do you? That's when stuff falls off :) =
I've seen daily driven turbo cars that have never had an an issue on the =
street, not make one session at the track before a stud or two backs =
out.

But to answer your question yes, it's endemic for turbo track miatas.


Emilio Cervantes
www.949Racing.com
26242 Dimension Dr #130
Lake Forest, CA 92630
949.716.3111 phone / fax


On 2009-04-02 03:05, Jason C wrote:=20
> A lot of people seem to have this problem (though not me)....I =
want to understand why some do and some don't. =C3=82 Some do despite =
the fancy serrated FM washers.Do FM see this problem?






_______________________________________________ Miatapower mailing =
list (email redacted) =
list.miatapower.net/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/miatapower=20


-------------------------------------------------------------------------=
-----


_______________________________________________
Miatapower mailing list
(email redacted)
list.miatapower.net/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/miatapower

This read-only message was archived from a public mail list.
Mail From: "Ralph Alder" <(email redacted)>

I, for one, have seen these posted here, and I have the same question =
then
as now: just how do self-locking threads work? It isn=92t obvious from =
the
catalog page drawing. Are the threads cut fore instance, instead of say =
24
tpi do they have 23.5tpi and just jamb fit in the hole or is there a =
much
more clever method?

=20

Ralph Alder

Curious In Orange Co.

=20

_____ =20

From: (email redacted)
[mailto:(email redacted)] On Behalf Of Bob Bundy
Sent: Wednesday, April 01, 2009 11:05 PM
To: (email redacted)
Subject: Re: loosening turbo to mani and turbo to d/p nuts

=20

Anybody use these studs? They have self locking threads on one end. I =
plan
to use 10mm self locking thread studs and the wedge lock washers when I =
put
things back together.=20

=20

mcmaster.com/#self-locking-threaded-studs/=3D19k229

=20

Driven on the street I never have a problem. lots of track duty and
everything goes wrong.=20

=20

Bob

=20

=20

----- Original Message -----=20

From: Bill Cardell <mailto:(email redacted)> =20

To: Emilio - <mailto:(email redacted)> 949Racing ; MiataPower
<mailto:(email redacted)> =20

Sent: Wednesday, April 01, 2009 10:04 PM

Subject: RE: loosening turbo to mani and turbo to d/p nuts

=20

We have had studs come out, mainly on track driven cars. I'd have to
disagree about the stage 8s, though. They also address the stud coming =
out.

=20

TurboDog's Dad=20
Bill Cardell=20
www.flyinmiata.com=20
1-800-FLY-MX5S=20
970-464-5600 tech support=20
Don't miss our Summer Camp! August 6-9=20

=20

=20


_____ =20


From: (email redacted)
[mailto:(email redacted)] On Behalf Of Emilio - =
949Racing
Sent: Wednesday, April 01, 2009 9:40 PM
To: MiataPower
Subject: Re: loosening turbo to mani and turbo to d/p nuts

My experience has been that its more the studs backing out. So even, =
stage
8's, Nordlocks, safety wire and what not doesn't always fix it. Someone =
at
MRLS mentioned that FM may be switching to or optionally offering 10mm =
studs
with their kits. The extra surface area does seem to make them stay put
longer. 10m studs have been de rigueur for turbo Miatas that see a lot =
of
track use but its trickling down to street cars slower it seems. I =
haven't
tried green, hi temp cylindrical bonding Loctite but that might help.
Another fix might be staking them, but that may raise cracking issues =
with
cast manifolds.

Jason, you don't track your car do you? That's when stuff falls off :) =
I've
seen daily driven turbo cars that have never had an an issue on the =
street,
not make one session at the track before a stud or two backs out.

But to answer your question yes, it's endemic for turbo track miatas.

=20

Emilio Cervantes

<949racing.com/> www.949Racing.com

26242 Dimension Dr #130

Lake Forest, CA 92630

949.716.3111 phone / fax



On 2009-04-02 03:05, Jason C wrote:=20
> A lot of people seem to have this problem (though not me)....I want to
understand why some do and some don't. =C2 Some do despite the fancy =
serrated
FM washers.Do FM see this problem?

=20

=20


_____ =20


_______________________________________________
Miatapower mailing list
(email redacted)
list.miatapower.net/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/miatapower

This read-only message was archived from a public mail list.
Mail From: "Ray Ayala" <(email redacted)>

OEMs have used these for centuries (literally). There are a couple of =
variations such as being slightly larger in diameter or having =
narrow-angle thread grooves to produce a friction fit.
----- Original Message -----=20
From: Ralph Alder=20
To: 'Bob Bundy' ; (email redacted)=20
Sent: Monday, May 04, 2009 9:56 PM
Subject: RE: loosening turbo to mani and turbo to d/p nuts


I, for one, have seen these posted here, and I have the same question =
then as now: just how do self-locking threads work? It isn't obvious =
from the catalog page drawing. Are the threads cut fore instance, =
instead of say 24 tpi do they have 23.5tpi and just jamb fit in the hole =
or is there a much more clever method?

=20

Ralph Alder

Curious In Orange Co.

=20


-------------------------------------------------------------------------=
-----

From: (email redacted) =
[mailto:(email redacted)] On Behalf Of Bob Bundy
Sent: Wednesday, April 01, 2009 11:05 PM
To: (email redacted)
Subject: Re: loosening turbo to mani and turbo to d/p nuts

=20

Anybody use these studs? They have self locking threads on one end. I =
plan to use 10mm self locking thread studs and the wedge lock washers =
when I put things back together.=20

=20

mcmaster.com/#self-locking-threaded-studs/=3D19k229

=20

Driven on the street I never have a problem. lots of track duty and =
everything goes wrong.=20

=20

Bob

=20

=20

----- Original Message -----=20

From: Bill Cardell=20

To: Emilio - 949Racing ; MiataPower=20

Sent: Wednesday, April 01, 2009 10:04 PM

Subject: RE: loosening turbo to mani and turbo to d/p nuts

=20

We have had studs come out, mainly on track driven cars. I'd have to =
disagree about the stage 8s, though. They also address the stud coming =
out.

=20

TurboDog's Dad=20
Bill Cardell=20
www.flyinmiata.com=20
1-800-FLY-MX5S=20
970-464-5600 tech support=20
Don't miss our Summer Camp! August 6-9=20

=20

=20


-------------------------------------------------------------------------=
---

From: (email redacted) =
[mailto:(email redacted)] On Behalf Of Emilio - =
949Racing
Sent: Wednesday, April 01, 2009 9:40 PM
To: MiataPower
Subject: Re: loosening turbo to mani and turbo to d/p nuts

My experience has been that its more the studs backing out. So even, =
stage 8's, Nordlocks, safety wire and what not doesn't always fix it. =
Someone at MRLS mentioned that FM may be switching to or optionally =
offering 10mm studs with their kits. The extra surface area does seem to =
make them stay put longer. 10m studs have been de rigueur for turbo =
Miatas that see a lot of track use but its trickling down to street =
cars slower it seems. I haven't tried green, hi temp cylindrical bonding =
Loctite but that might help. Another fix might be staking them, but that =
may raise cracking issues with cast manifolds.

Jason, you don't track your car do you? That's when stuff falls off =
:) I've seen daily driven turbo cars that have never had an an issue on =
the street, not make one session at the track before a stud or two backs =
out.

But to answer your question yes, it's endemic for turbo track =
miatas.

=20

Emilio Cervantes

www.949Racing.com

26242 Dimension Dr #130

Lake Forest, CA 92630

949.716.3111 phone / fax



On 2009-04-02 03:05, Jason C wrote:=20
> A lot of people seem to have this problem (though not me)....I =
want to understand why some do and some don't. =C2 Some do despite the =
fancy serrated FM washers.Do FM see this problem?

=20

=20


-------------------------------------------------------------------------=
---

_______________________________________________
Miatapower mailing list
(email redacted)
list.miatapower.net/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/miatapower



-------------------------------------------------------------------------=
-----


_______________________________________________
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(email redacted)
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This read-only message was archived from a public mail list.
Mail From: "Ralph Alder" <(email redacted)>

Very good, I understand =93interference fit=94. It goes right along =
with KISS.

=20

Ralph

=20

_____ =20

From: Ray Ayala [mailto:(email redacted)]=20
Sent: Tuesday, May 05, 2009 6:27 AM
To: Ralph Alder; (email redacted)
Subject: Re: loosening turbo to mani and turbo to d/p nuts

=20

OEMs have used these for centuries (literally). There are a couple of
variations such as being slightly larger in diameter or having =
narrow-angle
thread grooves to produce a friction fit.

----- Original Message -----=20

From: Ralph Alder <mailto:(email redacted)> =20

To: 'Bob Bundy' <mailto:(email redacted)> ; =
(email redacted)


Sent: Monday, May 04, 2009 9:56 PM

Subject: RE: loosening turbo to mani and turbo to d/p nuts

=20

I, for one, have seen these posted here, and I have the same question =
then
as now: just how do self-locking threads work? It isn=92t obvious from =
the
catalog page drawing. Are the threads cut fore instance, instead of say =
24
tpi do they have 23.5tpi and just jamb fit in the hole or is there a =
much
more clever method?

=20

Ralph Alder

Curious In Orange Co.

=20


_____ =20


From: (email redacted)
[mailto:(email redacted)] On Behalf Of Bob Bundy
Sent: Wednesday, April 01, 2009 11:05 PM
To: (email redacted)
Subject: Re: loosening turbo to mani and turbo to d/p nuts

=20

Anybody use these studs? They have self locking threads on one end. I =
plan
to use 10mm self locking thread studs and the wedge lock washers when I =
put
things back together.=20

=20

mcmaster.com/#self-locking-threaded-studs/=3D19k229

=20

Driven on the street I never have a problem. lots of track duty and
everything goes wrong.=20

=20

Bob

=20

=20

----- Original Message -----=20

From: Bill Cardell <mailto:(email redacted)> =20

To: Emilio - <mailto:(email redacted)> 949Racing ; MiataPower
<mailto:(email redacted)> =20

Sent: Wednesday, April 01, 2009 10:04 PM

Subject: RE: loosening turbo to mani and turbo to d/p nuts

=20

We have had studs come out, mainly on track driven cars. I'd have to
disagree about the stage 8s, though. They also address the stud coming =
out.

=20

TurboDog's Dad=20
Bill Cardell=20
www.flyinmiata.com=20
1-800-FLY-MX5S=20
970-464-5600 tech support=20
Don't miss our Summer Camp! August 6-9=20

=20

=20


_____ =20


From: (email redacted)
[mailto:(email redacted)] On Behalf Of Emilio - =
949Racing
Sent: Wednesday, April 01, 2009 9:40 PM
To: MiataPower
Subject: Re: loosening turbo to mani and turbo to d/p nuts

My experience has been that its more the studs backing out. So even, =
stage
8's, Nordlocks, safety wire and what not doesn't always fix it. Someone =
at
MRLS mentioned that FM may be switching to or optionally offering 10mm =
studs
with their kits. The extra surface area does seem to make them stay put
longer. 10m studs have been de rigueur for turbo Miatas that see a lot =
of
track use but its trickling down to street cars slower it seems. I =
haven't
tried green, hi temp cylindrical bonding Loctite but that might help.
Another fix might be staking them, but that may raise cracking issues =
with
cast manifolds.

Jason, you don't track your car do you? That's when stuff falls off :) =
I've
seen daily driven turbo cars that have never had an an issue on the =
street,
not make one session at the track before a stud or two backs out.

But to answer your question yes, it's endemic for turbo track miatas.

=20

Emilio Cervantes

<949racing.com/> www.949Racing.com

26242 Dimension Dr #130

Lake Forest, CA 92630

949.716.3111 phone / fax

On 2009-04-02 03:05, Jason C wrote:=20
> A lot of people seem to have this problem (though not me)....I want to
understand why some do and some don't. =C2 Some do despite the fancy =
serrated
FM washers.Do FM see this problem?

=20

=20


_____ =20


_______________________________________________
Miatapower mailing list
(email redacted)
list.miatapower.net/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/miatapower


_____ =20


_______________________________________________
Miatapower mailing list
(email redacted)
list.miatapower.net/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/miatapower