Miatapower List Archive

This read-only message was archived from a public mail list.
Mail From: "Circle Robert" <(email redacted)>


That will work for autoX but for 20 minute track event with the FMIII
system will not work. I have found that running Race Compound pads on
the track only gets you about 90% there for 1-2 sessions. By the third
or four session the braking is a bit unpredictable with new fluid
(AP550) Race compound pads and duct work Portafield R-compound pads are
easiler on the rotors then HAWKS. But the end result is that the cost
for the Race compound pads and new rotors is about the same for the
Willwood upgrade. Also you have switch the pads out for every track
event which is a PITA. Overall the willwood upgraded is worth the money.
In the end going fast is never cheap.

Robert Liu wrote:

> Does anyone on the list have much experience with
> brake ducting? I have a 91 with 1.8L brakes, waiting
> on a FMIII system. Instead of upgrading to Wilwood or
> Baer brakes, I think running good fluid, pads, and
> brake ducting might do the trick. The car will only do
> occasional track events and autocrosses (not an issue
> for autox).
>
> Has anyone who does track events experimented with a
> R-package front air dam and brake ducting? I'm
> interested to hear the results. TIA.
>
> Bob
>
> =====
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------
> Robert Liu
> (email redacted)
> ICQ# 22765210
>
> __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger.
> im.yahoo.com

This read-only message was archived from a public mail list.
Mail From: Robert Liu <(email redacted)>


Does anyone on the list have much experience with
brake ducting? I have a 91 with 1.8L brakes, waiting
on a FMIII system. Instead of upgrading to Wilwood or
Baer brakes, I think running good fluid, pads, and
brake ducting might do the trick. The car will only do
occasional track events and autocrosses (not an issue
for autox).

Has anyone who does track events experimented with a
R-package front air dam and brake ducting? I'm
interested to hear the results. TIA.

Bob

=====

------------------------------------------------------------
Robert Liu
(email redacted)
ICQ# 22765210


__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger.
im.yahoo.com

This read-only message was archived from a public mail list.
Mail From: "Mel Hoagland" <(email redacted)>


My experience with Metal Masters in the front and stock pads in the rear has
been different - through four sessions at NHIS and four sessions at Lime
Rock, they still have life left in them. Maybe I've been driving too easy,
but the rest of the drivers in my run group wouldn't say that. My plan has
been to upgrade to the Hawk Blacks before Lime Rock, but I may go through
the school in April with the ones I have and change them for the race in
June.

Could it be my technique? I definitely don't spend a lot of time on the
brakes - I ease them on then squeeze VERY hard then get back off
completely - all in an extremely short span of time.

Mel
------------------------------------------------------------
Mel Hoagland ((email redacted))
"Wheezy" black 96 FMII vrrooommmm

----- Original Message -----
From: Circle Robert <(email redacted)>
To: Robert Liu <(email redacted)>
Cc: Miatapower <(email redacted)>
Sent: Thursday, March 30, 2000 4:38 AM
Subject: Re: brake ducting


>
> That will work for autoX but for 20 minute track event with the FMIII
> system will not work. I have found that running Race Compound pads on
> the track only gets you about 90% there for 1-2 sessions. By the third
> or four session the braking is a bit unpredictable with new fluid
> (AP550) Race compound pads and duct work Portafield R-compound pads are
> easiler on the rotors then HAWKS. But the end result is that the cost
> for the Race compound pads and new rotors is about the same for the
> Willwood upgrade. Also you have switch the pads out for every track
> event which is a PITA. Overall the willwood upgraded is worth the money.
> In the end going fast is never cheap.
>
> Robert Liu wrote:
>
> > Does anyone on the list have much experience with
> > brake ducting? I have a 91 with 1.8L brakes, waiting
> > on a FMIII system. Instead of upgrading to Wilwood or
> > Baer brakes, I think running good fluid, pads, and
> > brake ducting might do the trick. The car will only do
> > occasional track events and autocrosses (not an issue
> > for autox).
> >
> > Has anyone who does track events experimented with a
> > R-package front air dam and brake ducting? I'm
> > interested to hear the results. TIA.
> >
> > Bob
> >
> > =====
> >
> > ------------------------------------------------------------
> > Robert Liu
> > (email redacted)
> > ICQ# 22765210
> >
> > __________________________________________________
> > Do You Yahoo!?
> > Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger.
> > im.yahoo.com
>

This read-only message was archived from a public mail list.
Mail From: Robert Liu <(email redacted)>


Interesting. A few more questions if you don't mind:
Mel - are you running brake ducting? If so, can you
comment on the setup? Bob C - are you on 1.6L or 1.8L
brakes? Do the pads you are running have a ceramic
backing plate? Are the rotors slotted or
cross-drilled?

I know that the wilwoods would be better, but my car
will probably only see a couple track days a year. I
would think that good ducting, pads, and fluids would
do the trick at most tracks. But, if it's been done
and plain doesn't work, I don't want to waste my time.
Thanks!

Bob

--- Mel Hoagland <(email redacted)> wrote:
>
> My experience with Metal Masters in the front and
> stock pads in the rear has
> been different - through four sessions at NHIS and
> four sessions at Lime
> Rock, they still have life left in them. Maybe I've
> been driving too easy,
> but the rest of the drivers in my run group wouldn't
> say that. My plan has
> been to upgrade to the Hawk Blacks before Lime Rock,
> but I may go through
> the school in April with the ones I have and change
> them for the race in
> June.
>
> Could it be my technique? I definitely don't spend a
> lot of time on the
> brakes - I ease them on then squeeze VERY hard then
> get back off
> completely - all in an extremely short span of time.
>
> Mel
>
------------------------------------------------------------
> Mel Hoagland ((email redacted))
> "Wheezy" black 96 FMII vrrooommmm
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Circle Robert <(email redacted)>
> To: Robert Liu <(email redacted)>
> Cc: Miatapower <(email redacted)>
> Sent: Thursday, March 30, 2000 4:38 AM
> Subject: Re: brake ducting
>
>
> >
> > That will work for autoX but for 20 minute track
> event with the FMIII
> > system will not work. I have found that running
> Race Compound pads on
> > the track only gets you about 90% there for 1-2
> sessions. By the third
> > or four session the braking is a bit unpredictable
> with new fluid
> > (AP550) Race compound pads and duct work
> Portafield R-compound pads are
> > easiler on the rotors then HAWKS. But the end
> result is that the cost
> > for the Race compound pads and new rotors is about
> the same for the
> > Willwood upgrade. Also you have switch the pads
> out for every track
> > event which is a PITA. Overall the willwood
> upgraded is worth the money.
> > In the end going fast is never cheap.
> >
> > Robert Liu wrote:
> >
> > > Does anyone on the list have much experience
> with
> > > brake ducting? I have a 91 with 1.8L brakes,
> waiting
> > > on a FMIII system. Instead of upgrading to
> Wilwood or
> > > Baer brakes, I think running good fluid, pads,
> and
> > > brake ducting might do the trick. The car will
> only do
> > > occasional track events and autocrosses (not an
> issue
> > > for autox).
> > >
> > > Has anyone who does track events experimented
> with a
> > > R-package front air dam and brake ducting? I'm
> > > interested to hear the results. TIA.
> > >
> > > Bob
> > >
> > > =====
> > >
> > >
>
------------------------------------------------------------
> > > Robert Liu
> > > (email redacted)
> > > ICQ# 22765210
> > >
> > >
> __________________________________________________
> > > Do You Yahoo!?
> > > Talk to your friends online with Yahoo!
> Messenger.
> > > im.yahoo.com
> >
>
>

=====

------------------------------------------------------------
Robert Liu
(email redacted)
ICQ# 22765210


__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger.
im.yahoo.com

This read-only message was archived from a public mail list.
Mail From: "Mel Hoagland" <(email redacted)>


I don't run ducting, but it's something I've thought about. I believe I've
heard that ducting from the from lip spoiler openings to directly behind the
center of the front hubs does work, using flexible drier duct.

FWIW

Mel
------------------------------------------------------------
Mel Hoagland ((email redacted))
"Wheezy" black 96 FMII vrrooommmm

----- Original Message -----
From: Robert Liu <(email redacted)>
To: Miatapower <(email redacted)>
Sent: Thursday, March 30, 2000 1:01 PM
Subject: Re: brake ducting


>
> Interesting. A few more questions if you don't mind:
> Mel - are you running brake ducting? If so, can you
> comment on the setup? Bob C - are you on 1.6L or 1.8L
> brakes? Do the pads you are running have a ceramic
> backing plate? Are the rotors slotted or
> cross-drilled?
>
> I know that the wilwoods would be better, but my car
> will probably only see a couple track days a year. I
> would think that good ducting, pads, and fluids would
> do the trick at most tracks. But, if it's been done
> and plain doesn't work, I don't want to waste my time.
> Thanks!
>
> Bob
>
> --- Mel Hoagland <(email redacted)> wrote:
> >
> > My experience with Metal Masters in the front and
> > stock pads in the rear has
> > been different - through four sessions at NHIS and
> > four sessions at Lime
> > Rock, they still have life left in them. Maybe I've
> > been driving too easy,
> > but the rest of the drivers in my run group wouldn't
> > say that. My plan has
> > been to upgrade to the Hawk Blacks before Lime Rock,
> > but I may go through
> > the school in April with the ones I have and change
> > them for the race in
> > June.
> >
> > Could it be my technique? I definitely don't spend a
> > lot of time on the
> > brakes - I ease them on then squeeze VERY hard then
> > get back off
> > completely - all in an extremely short span of time.
> >
> > Mel
> >
> ------------------------------------------------------------
> > Mel Hoagland ((email redacted))
> > "Wheezy" black 96 FMII vrrooommmm
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: Circle Robert <(email redacted)>
> > To: Robert Liu <(email redacted)>
> > Cc: Miatapower <(email redacted)>
> > Sent: Thursday, March 30, 2000 4:38 AM
> > Subject: Re: brake ducting
> >
> >
> > >
> > > That will work for autoX but for 20 minute track
> > event with the FMIII
> > > system will not work. I have found that running
> > Race Compound pads on
> > > the track only gets you about 90% there for 1-2
> > sessions. By the third
> > > or four session the braking is a bit unpredictable
> > with new fluid
> > > (AP550) Race compound pads and duct work
> > Portafield R-compound pads are
> > > easiler on the rotors then HAWKS. But the end
> > result is that the cost
> > > for the Race compound pads and new rotors is about
> > the same for the
> > > Willwood upgrade. Also you have switch the pads
> > out for every track
> > > event which is a PITA. Overall the willwood
> > upgraded is worth the money.
> > > In the end going fast is never cheap.
> > >
> > > Robert Liu wrote:
> > >
> > > > Does anyone on the list have much experience
> > with
> > > > brake ducting? I have a 91 with 1.8L brakes,
> > waiting
> > > > on a FMIII system. Instead of upgrading to
> > Wilwood or
> > > > Baer brakes, I think running good fluid, pads,
> > and
> > > > brake ducting might do the trick. The car will
> > only do
> > > > occasional track events and autocrosses (not an
> > issue
> > > > for autox).
> > > >
> > > > Has anyone who does track events experimented
> > with a
> > > > R-package front air dam and brake ducting? I'm
> > > > interested to hear the results. TIA.
> > > >
> > > > Bob
> > > >
> > > > =====
> > > >
> > > >
> >
> ------------------------------------------------------------
> > > > Robert Liu
> > > > (email redacted)
> > > > ICQ# 22765210
> > > >
> > > >
> > __________________________________________________
> > > > Do You Yahoo!?
> > > > Talk to your friends online with Yahoo!
> > Messenger.
> > > > im.yahoo.com
> > >
> >
> >
>
> =====
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------
> Robert Liu
> (email redacted)
> ICQ# 22765210
>
>
> __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger.
> im.yahoo.com

This read-only message was archived from a public mail list.
Mail From: Robert Circle <(email redacted)>


Robert Liu wrote:

> Interesting. A few more questions if you don't mind:
> Mel - are you running brake ducting? If so, can you
> comment on the setup? Bob C - are you on 1.6L or 1.8L
> brakes? Do the pads you are running have a ceramic
> backing plate? Are the rotors slotted or
> cross-drilled?
>
> I know that the wilwoods would be better, but my car
> will probably only see a couple track days a year. I
> would think that good ducting, pads, and fluids would
> do the trick at most tracks. But, if it's been done
> and plain doesn't work, I don't want to waste my time.
> Thanks!
>
> Bob
>
> --- Mel Hoagland <(email redacted)> wrote:
> >
> > My experience with Metal Masters in the front and
> > stock pads in the rear has
> > been different - through four sessions at NHIS and
> > four sessions at Lime
> > Rock, they still have life left in them. Maybe I've
> > been driving too easy,
> > but the rest of the drivers in my run group wouldn't
> > say that. My plan has
> > been to upgrade to the Hawk Blacks before Lime Rock,
> > but I may go through
> > the school in April with the ones I have and change
> > them for the race in
> > June.
> >
> > Could it be my technique? I definitely don't spend a
> > lot of time on the
> > brakes - I ease them on then squeeze VERY hard then
> > get back off
> > completely - all in an extremely short span of time.
> >
> > Mel
> >
> ------------------------------------------------------------
> > Mel Hoagland ((email redacted))
> > "Wheezy" black 96 FMII vrrooommmm
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: Circle Robert <(email redacted)>
> > To: Robert Liu <(email redacted)>
> > Cc: Miatapower <(email redacted)>
> > Sent: Thursday, March 30, 2000 4:38 AM
> > Subject: Re: brake ducting
> >
> >
> > >
> > > That will work for autoX but for 20 minute track
> > event with the FMIII
> > > system will not work. I have found that running
> > Race Compound pads on
> > > the track only gets you about 90% there for 1-2
> > sessions. By the third
> > > or four session the braking is a bit unpredictable
> > with new fluid
> > > (AP550) Race compound pads and duct work
> > Portafield R-compound pads are
> > > easiler on the rotors then HAWKS. But the end
> > result is that the cost
> > > for the Race compound pads and new rotors is about
> > the same for the
> > > Willwood upgrade. Also you have switch the pads
> > out for every track
> > > event which is a PITA. Overall the willwood
> > upgraded is worth the money.
> > > In the end going fast is never cheap.
> > >
> > > Robert Liu wrote:
> > >
> > > > Does anyone on the list have much experience
> > with
> > > > brake ducting? I have a 91 with 1.8L brakes,
> > waiting
> > > > on a FMIII system. Instead of upgrading to
> > Wilwood or
> > > > Baer brakes, I think running good fluid, pads,
> > and
> > > > brake ducting might do the trick. The car will
> > only do
> > > > occasional track events and autocrosses (not an
> > issue
> > > > for autox).
> > > >
> > > > Has anyone who does track events experimented
> > with a
> > > > R-package front air dam and brake ducting? I'm
> > > > interested to hear the results. TIA.
> > > >
> > > > Bob
> > > >
> > > > =====
> > > >
> > > >
> >
> ------------------------------------------------------------
> > > > Robert Liu
> > > > (email redacted)
> > > > ICQ# 22765210
> > > >
> > > >
> > __________________________________________________
> > > > Do You Yahoo!?
> > > > Talk to your friends online with Yahoo!
> > Messenger.
> > > > im.yahoo.com
> > >
> >
> >
>
> =====
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------
> Robert Liu
> (email redacted)
> ICQ# 22765210
>
> __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger.
> im.yahoo.com

I have 1.8 liter in the front and back. Last year the brakes in the rear
were 1.8 liter. If you are doing 1-2 track sessions a year yes you can
do that. BTW I would not recommend Metal Master Brake pad. I would run
the portifield race compound pads at the track only. They hold up during
the sessions and don't eat up the rotors like the hawk pads!! On the
street I run Portifield pads in front and hawk black on rear. No I don't
have the cermeric backing plate. The turbo system is running about 17
psi of boost on a 1.6 liter on the track. On the street it is running
about 20 psi of boost.

This read-only message was archived from a public mail list.
Mail From: Skip Cannon <(email redacted)>


Bob,

I am in the starting stages of exactly that project. I have the R type air
dam and have found some plastic fittings I think I can adapt to the ducts.
I have some heavy aluminum flex pipe to carry the air to the rotor. I hope
to have it ready for a track day on April 9.

I'll let you know how it works out.

I have the Willwood brakes and can fade them fairly easily in about 5 hot
laps. I hope the air ducts will prevent that.

Skip Cannon


>Does anyone on the list have much experience with
>brake ducting? I have a 91 with 1.8L brakes, waiting
>on a FMIII system. Instead of upgrading to Wilwood or
>Baer brakes, I think running good fluid, pads, and
>brake ducting might do the trick. The car will only do
>occasional track events and autocrosses (not an issue
>for autox).
>
>Has anyone who does track events experimented with a
>R-package front air dam and brake ducting? I'm
>interested to hear the results. TIA.
>
>Bob
>
>=====
>
>------------------------------------------------------------
>Robert Liu
>(email redacted)
>ICQ# 22765210
>
>
>__________________________________________________
>Do You Yahoo!?
>Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger.
>im.yahoo.com

This read-only message was archived from a public mail list.
Mail From: Aleksandr Milewski <(email redacted)>


At 17:56 -0800 on 000330, you commanded the electrons to create a
missive titled "Re: brake ducting":
|Bob,
|
|I am in the starting stages of exactly that project. I have the R type air
|dam and have found some plastic fittings I think I can adapt to the ducts.
|I have some heavy aluminum flex pipe to carry the air to the rotor. I hope
|to have it ready for a track day on April 9.

Interesting. I have an R air dam and 12' of 3" SCAT duct from
Aircraft-Spruce waiting for this project. (and doing the same to the
M Coupe ;) I was planning on just squashing the ducting into the
inlet ducts on the air dam and popping a couple of blind rivets
through from either side, maybe through an aluminum strip to keep
from tearing the duct.

Then, zip ties to the tie rod or control arm, I haven't been in that
far yet. I do have some nice aluminum flanges for the 3" duct, also
from A-S, that might get attached to the backing plate.

|I'll let you know how it works out.

Same here.

-Zandr

---------------------------------------------------------------------
Aleksandr Milewski N6MOD
(email redacted) milewski.org/

This read-only message was archived from a public mail list.
Mail From: David Bennett <(email redacted)>


I have seen pictures of a "airbox?" "connector?" "whatever(!) that connects the
flex pipe directly to and over the calipers so the cool air is directed into the

brakes and rotor. Anyone know where to find such beast?

I don't think just ducting will do a whole lot of good if it is not directed
right into the brakes.

David b.

This read-only message was archived from a public mail list.
Mail From: David Bennett <(email redacted)>


Now you're gonna make me have to go outside and crawl under the car on this cold
dark night to see how this would aim towards the center of the rotor and how I
could stabilize it.

Every picture I have seen shows the air being ducted to the outside of the rotor
not the inside. When I think about it, it does to make a certain amount of sense
to duct to the center because it seems the rotor would "throw" the air to the
outside.

You're sure about aiming at the center?

David b.

Aleksandr Milewski wrote:

> At 19:28 -0600 on 000330, you commanded the electrons to create a
> missive titled "Brake Ducting":
> |I have seen pictures of a "airbox?" "connector?" "whatever(!) that
> connects the
> |flex pipe directly to and over the calipers so the cool air is
> directed into the
> |
> |brakes and rotor. Anyone know where to find such beast?
>
> Well, you can modify the backing plates to accept the duct, or you
> can simply remove the backing plate and point the duct at the center
> of the rotor. The M3 guys can get backing plates with the flanges
> welded in...I'll try to find a picture of that online.
>
> What you really want to do is put a blast of cool air at the rotor
> 'hat' and push air through the internal vents of the rotor. Getting
> air to the caliper itself is probably less important than cooling the
> rotor.
>
> |I don't think just ducting will do a whole lot of good if it is not directed
> |right into the brakes.
>
> Actually, even the R airdam without any additional ducting can help a
> little, but an open duct end aimed at the rotor hat will do wonders.
>
> -Zandr
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> Aleksandr Milewski N6MOD
> (email redacted) milewski.org/

This read-only message was archived from a public mail list.
Mail From: "Tom Perry" <(email redacted)>



Wow! You fade the Willwoods in 5 laps. I would guess you're either very
slow
or very fast. So which is it? ;-)) Seriously, I've run mine at Summit
Point where I'm able to reach ~115-120mph at the bottom of the main
straight
and had fade only at the very end of a 20 minute session. Of course, I've
only driven two roadcourses so maybe you're driving tracks that are much
harder on brakes?

BTW, while still N/A, I've run stock 1.6l rotors, drilled, with Porterfield
R4S's on the much slower Jefferson Circuit at Summit and the brakes were
fading after 6-8 laps.

Tom


> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Skip Cannon" <(email redacted)>
> To: "Robert Liu" <(email redacted)>
> Cc: <(email redacted)>
> Sent: Thursday, March 30, 2000 8:56 PM
> Subject: Re: brake ducting
>
>
> >
> > Bob,
> >
> > I am in the starting stages of exactly that project. I have the R type
> air
> > dam and have found some plastic fittings I think I can adapt to the
ducts.
> > I have some heavy aluminum flex pipe to carry the air to the rotor. I
> hope
> > to have it ready for a track day on April 9.
> >
> > I'll let you know how it works out.
> >
> > I have the Willwood brakes and can fade them fairly easily in about 5
hot
> > laps. I hope the air ducts will prevent that.
> >
> > Skip Cannon
> >
> >
> > >Does anyone on the list have much experience with
> > >brake ducting? I have a 91 with 1.8L brakes, waiting
> > >on a FMIII system. Instead of upgrading to Wilwood or
> > >Baer brakes, I think running good fluid, pads, and
> > >brake ducting might do the trick. The car will only do
> > >occasional track events and autocrosses (not an issue
> > >for autox).
> > >
> > >Has anyone who does track events experimented with a
> > >R-package front air dam and brake ducting? I'm
> > >interested to hear the results. TIA.
> > >
> > >Bob
> > >
> > >=====
> > >
> > >------------------------------------------------------------
> > >Robert Liu
> > >(email redacted)
> > >ICQ# 22765210
> > >
> > >
> > >__________________________________________________
> > >Do You Yahoo!?
> > >Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger.
> > >im.yahoo.com
> >
> >
> >
>