Miatapower List Archive

This read-only message was archived from a public mail list.
Mail From: "Bill Cardell" <(email redacted)>


Figured our '99 was broken in with 600 miles on the new stock engine (broken
in with Redline, thank you). Tried several set-ups regarding the VICS
system. Short story-it works very well. If you look at the dyno chart in
Tales from the dyno, Run 29 is with hose disconnected and plugged for the
VICS actuator. Major drop in midrange torque. Run 30 is with VICS hooked up
normally. Run 31 is with VICS locked in the low rpm position, you can see
that peak hp is the same, but hp plummets after about 6k rpm.


Bill Cardell
The Dealer Alternative, Inc
dlralt.com
200mphmiata.net
1-800-FLY-MX5S (orders only)
1-970-242-3800 (tech)

This read-only message was archived from a public mail list.
Mail From: James Montebello <(email redacted)>


On Thu, 4 May 2000, Bill Cardell wrote:
>
> Figured our '99 was broken in with 600 miles on the new stock engine (broken
> in with Redline, thank you). Tried several set-ups regarding the VICS
> system. Short story-it works very well. If you look at the dyno chart in
> Tales from the dyno, Run 29 is with hose disconnected and plugged for the
> VICS actuator. Major drop in midrange torque. Run 30 is with VICS hooked up
> normally. Run 31 is with VICS locked in the low rpm position, you can see
> that peak hp is the same, but hp plummets after about 6k rpm.

Thanks for doing this. Quite fascinating. One thing you didn't point
out was the very noticable dip at 5200rpm, which is where the valve is
supposed to open. Torque dropped from about 105 to 100 instantly at
that point.

I'm assuming that run 29 was with the valve locked in the high-rpm
position. If so, it's quite puzzling that the torque peak was so
low in this graph. I would expect to see a big dip (which there is)
followed by a big peak (which there isn't). I suspect that Mazda isn't
even close to getting everything there is to gain out of this system.
Emissions concerns are probably the limiting factor. Leaves a lot of
room for the clever NA people out there.

btw, there's talk that the '01 Miata will have variable valve timing.
I wonder if they'll be employing it with VICS, or in place of VICS.
Anyone have any details? Intake cam only? Exhaust cam only? Both?
Actuating system?

james montebello

This read-only message was archived from a public mail list.
Mail From: (email redacted)



Interesting.

I do think that it does infact make a difference, however is the manifold
design really all that optimal? There are a lot of compromises in a stock
motor due to emmissions concerns and normal streetability issues. I was
rather surprised at the drop in mid-range torque, but there was a gain
(slight) with low end torque. I wish there was a way to compare it with an
IRTB setup which I suspect would provide some gains.

I know I am on record as calling VICS a gimmick, it is nice to see some dyno
proof that it does work somewhat well in this manifold. 5% is a significant
number though and it is hard to argue with the dyno!

Mark

>
>
> Figured our '99 was broken in with 600 miles on the new stock engine (broken
> in with Redline, thank you). Tried several set-ups regarding the VICS
> system. Short story-it works very well. If you look at the dyno chart in
> Tales from the dyno, Run 29 is with hose disconnected and plugged for the
> VICS actuator. Major drop in midrange torque. Run 30 is with VICS hooked up
> normally. Run 31 is with VICS locked in the low rpm position, you can see
> that peak hp is the same, but hp plummets after about 6k rpm.
>
>
> Bill Cardell
> The Dealer Alternative, Inc
> dlralt.com
> 200mphmiata.net
> 1-800-FLY-MX5S (orders only)
> 1-970-242-3800 (tech)
>

This read-only message was archived from a public mail list.
Mail From: (email redacted)



Another interesting note.... Bill's '99 Dyno'd within 1 HP and 1 FT/LB of
torque of my miata.... I assume bill posted corrected numbers for sea level.

Additional note, the crossover between torque and horsepower occurs at
precisely the same point on the dyno chart.

Mark

>
>
> Figured our '99 was broken in with 600 miles on the new stock engine (broken
> in with Redline, thank you). Tried several set-ups regarding the VICS
> system. Short story-it works very well. If you look at the dyno chart in
> Tales from the dyno, Run 29 is with hose disconnected and plugged for the
> VICS actuator. Major drop in midrange torque. Run 30 is with VICS hooked up
> normally. Run 31 is with VICS locked in the low rpm position, you can see
> that peak hp is the same, but hp plummets after about 6k rpm.
>
>
> Bill Cardell
> The Dealer Alternative, Inc
> dlralt.com
> 200mphmiata.net
> 1-800-FLY-MX5S (orders only)
> 1-970-242-3800 (tech)
>

This read-only message was archived from a public mail list.
Mail From: (email redacted)



I wonder if the computer alters the timing or injector pulses to deal with
the VICS opening? If the computer alters something that relys on the VICS
valve being open it could be that there would normally not be such a hard
dip.

Mark

>
>
> On Thu, 4 May 2000, Bill Cardell wrote:
> >
> > Figured our '99 was broken in with 600 miles on the new stock engine (broken
> > in with Redline, thank you). Tried several set-ups regarding the VICS
> > system. Short story-it works very well. If you look at the dyno chart in
> > Tales from the dyno, Run 29 is with hose disconnected and plugged for the
> > VICS actuator. Major drop in midrange torque. Run 30 is with VICS hooked up
> > normally. Run 31 is with VICS locked in the low rpm position, you can see
> > that peak hp is the same, but hp plummets after about 6k rpm.
>
> Thanks for doing this. Quite fascinating. One thing you didn't point
> out was the very noticable dip at 5200rpm, which is where the valve is
> supposed to open. Torque dropped from about 105 to 100 instantly at
> that point.
>
> I'm assuming that run 29 was with the valve locked in the high-rpm
> position. If so, it's quite puzzling that the torque peak was so
> low in this graph. I would expect to see a big dip (which there is)
> followed by a big peak (which there isn't). I suspect that Mazda isn't
> even close to getting everything there is to gain out of this system.
> Emissions concerns are probably the limiting factor. Leaves a lot of
> room for the clever NA people out there.
>
> btw, there's talk that the '01 Miata will have variable valve timing.
> I wonder if they'll be employing it with VICS, or in place of VICS.
> Anyone have any details? Intake cam only? Exhaust cam only? Both?
> Actuating system?
>
> james montebello
>

This read-only message was archived from a public mail list.
Mail From: Brad Franks <(email redacted)>


Now comes the real question to a 99 owner with a FI it of some type and
access to a dyno.

Does the VICS system do anything to aid or hurt a pressurized system? I'd be
curious to see what happens to a '99 with some type of forced induction
(most likely a turbo) and these same testing parameters of VICS locked in
"high end", VICS locked in "low end" and VICS operating normally...

I have the feeling that there would be almost no difference between the
three except where the most turbulence is present (not sure which mode this
would be)

Brad


-----Original Message-----
From: (email redacted)
[mailto:(email redacted)]On Behalf Of
(email redacted)
Sent: Thursday, May 04, 2000 1:12 PM
To: (email redacted)
Cc: (email redacted)
Subject: Re: 99 Dyno Tales




Interesting.

I do think that it does infact make a difference, however is the manifold
design really all that optimal? There are a lot of compromises in a stock
motor due to emmissions concerns and normal streetability issues. I was
rather surprised at the drop in mid-range torque, but there was a gain
(slight) with low end torque. I wish there was a way to compare it with an
IRTB setup which I suspect would provide some gains.

I know I am on record as calling VICS a gimmick, it is nice to see some dyno
proof that it does work somewhat well in this manifold. 5% is a significant
number though and it is hard to argue with the dyno!

Mark

>
>
> Figured our '99 was broken in with 600 miles on the new stock engine
(broken
> in with Redline, thank you). Tried several set-ups regarding the VICS
> system. Short story-it works very well. If you look at the dyno chart in
> Tales from the dyno, Run 29 is with hose disconnected and plugged for the
> VICS actuator. Major drop in midrange torque. Run 30 is with VICS hooked
up
> normally. Run 31 is with VICS locked in the low rpm position, you can see
> that peak hp is the same, but hp plummets after about 6k rpm.
>
>
> Bill Cardell
> The Dealer Alternative, Inc
> dlralt.com
> 200mphmiata.net
> 1-800-FLY-MX5S (orders only)
> 1-970-242-3800 (tech)
>

This read-only message was archived from a public mail list.
Mail From: James Montebello <(email redacted)>


On Thu, 4 May 2000 (email redacted) wrote:
>
> Additional note, the crossover between torque and horsepower occurs at
> precisely the same point on the dyno chart.
>

Assuming you aren't joking...

They will cross at the same point on every dyno chart you ever see,
at 5250rpm. Horsepower (in SAE hp) is defined as torque (in ft/lbs)
x rpm / 5250.

james montebello

This read-only message was archived from a public mail list.
Mail From: (email redacted)


FWIW, on my dyno runs (drgaonracing.tsx.org under the engine stuff) I was activating - actually cutting power to the solenoid - like the stock ecu does - at 4100 rpm. I moved that down to 4000 this weekend, but maybe I need to raise it to not hurt the midrange. There is a definate low spot in the torque curve just before the valve closes.

Stan Whitney


(email redacted) wrote:
>

I wonder if the computer alters the timing or injector pulses to deal with
the VICS opening? If the computer alters something that relys on the VICS
valve being open it could be that there would normally not be such a hard
dip.

Mark

>
>
> On Thu, 4 May 2000, Bill Cardell wrote:
> >
> > Figured our '99 was broken in with 600 miles on the new stock engine (broken
> > in with Redline, thank you). Tried several set-ups regarding the VICS
> > system. Short story-it works very well. If you look at the dyno chart in
> > Tales from the dyno, Run 29 is with hose disconnected and plugged for the
> > VICS actuator. Major drop in midrange torque. Run 30 is with VICS hooked up
> > normally. Run 31 is with VICS locked in the low rpm position, you can see
> > that peak hp is the same, but hp plummets after about 6k rpm.
>
> Thanks for doing this. Quite fascinating. One thing you didn't point
> out was the very noticable dip at 5200rpm, which is where the valve is
> supposed to open. Torque dropped from about 105 to 100 instantly at
> that point.
>
> I'm assuming that run 29 was with the valve locked in the high-rpm
> position. If so, it's quite puzzling that the torque peak was so
> low in this graph. I would expect to see a big dip (which there is)
> followed by a big peak (which there isn't). I suspect that Mazda isn't
> even close to getting everything there is to gain out of this system.
> Emissions concerns are probably the limiting factor. Leaves a lot of
> room for the clever NA people out there.
>
> btw, there's talk that the '01 Miata will have variable valve timing.
> I wonder if they'll be employing it with VICS, or in place of VICS.
> Anyone have any details? Intake cam only? Exhaust cam only? Both?
> Actuating system?
>
> james montebello
>

This read-only message was archived from a public mail list.
Mail From: (email redacted)



No I was not joking actually, I guess you learn something new every day!

Mark

>
>
> On Thu, 4 May 2000 (email redacted) wrote:
> >
> > Additional note, the crossover between torque and horsepower occurs at
> > precisely the same point on the dyno chart.
> >
>
> Assuming you aren't joking...
>
> They will cross at the same point on every dyno chart you ever see,
> at 5250rpm. Horsepower (in SAE hp) is defined as torque (in ft/lbs)
> x rpm / 5250.
>
> james montebello
>

This read-only message was archived from a public mail list.
Mail From: User1 - Bill Cardell <(email redacted)>


The notch in the response where the VICS kicked in is what reminded me to
try this stuff. Very obvious on the dyno, though I can't feel it. Run 29 was
with the hose off the VICS solenoid, so "high rpm" mode. 30 was stock, 31
was locked in low rpm by actuating actuator, then crimping hose to hold
actuator pulled in. One interesting thing was when I tried doing a cold air
on the n/a car pulling through the firewall, you could really "hear" the
changeover. Of course you could hear everything that happened in the engine
painfully with that set-up. God's own shopvac through a stack of Marshall
amps.


Bill Cardell
The Dealer Alternative, Inc
dlralt.com
200mphmiata.net
1-800-FLY-MX5S (orders only)
1-970-242-3800 (tech)


-----Original Message-----
From: James Montebello [mailto:(email redacted)]
Sent: Thursday, May 04, 2000 2:11 PM
To: Bill Cardell
Cc: (email redacted)
Subject: Re: 99 Dyno Tales


On Thu, 4 May 2000, Bill Cardell wrote:
>
> Figured our '99 was broken in with 600 miles on the new stock engine
(broken
> in with Redline, thank you). Tried several set-ups regarding the VICS
> system. Short story-it works very well. If you look at the dyno chart in
> Tales from the dyno, Run 29 is with hose disconnected and plugged for the
> VICS actuator. Major drop in midrange torque. Run 30 is with VICS hooked
up
> normally. Run 31 is with VICS locked in the low rpm position, you can see
> that peak hp is the same, but hp plummets after about 6k rpm.

Thanks for doing this. Quite fascinating. One thing you didn't point
out was the very noticable dip at 5200rpm, which is where the valve is
supposed to open. Torque dropped from about 105 to 100 instantly at
that point.

I'm assuming that run 29 was with the valve locked in the high-rpm
position. If so, it's quite puzzling that the torque peak was so
low in this graph. I would expect to see a big dip (which there is)
followed by a big peak (which there isn't). I suspect that Mazda isn't
even close to getting everything there is to gain out of this system.
Emissions concerns are probably the limiting factor. Leaves a lot of
room for the clever NA people out there.

btw, there's talk that the '01 Miata will have variable valve timing.
I wonder if they'll be employing it with VICS, or in place of VICS.
Anyone have any details? Intake cam only? Exhaust cam only? Both?
Actuating system?

james montebello