Miata List Archive

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Mail From: Larry (Larry Alster)

What it boils down to is Peter is the only one that knows anything about cars.

Guess all those guys driving the Real-Time Acuras for all those years killing everyone else in the class were just doing it because they didn't know that they were driving cars that drove from the wrong wheels.


Larry

White Knight 1991 Crystal White #99 CSP
Silver Bullet 1992 Silverstone #17 EM FM I+ Turbo
Honey B 1992 Sunburst Yellow
Whooosh 2004 Titanium MazdaSpeed MX5

LowCountry Miata lowcountrymiataclub.net
Masters Miata
RAGS 074

----- Original Message -----
From: (email redacted)
To: (email redacted)
Sent: Thursday, September 30, 2004 3:30 PM
Subject: Re: [Miata] Fw: Your first look at the new MAZDASPEED6. Itwon'tbeyour last. [NMC]


Here we go again...another "Pete's opinion vs. everyone else's" thread. My head hurts everytime this happens. Let's set a new filter: CPC "Caution Pete Content" ;)

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-------------- Original message --------------

>
> Abraham Mara wrote...
>
> > But to say there's no reason to TRY another car? What the heck? Maybe,
> > just maybe, there's something to it. And what does it cost you to try?
>
> Time and more disappointment.
>
> > Goodness, if some kid wants to let me drive his car around the block so I
> > can tell him all the ways it sucks, it's no skin off my nose. Will I get
> > into the thing expecting it to be less than my miata? Sure.
>
> Yes, I'd probably do that too. The opportunity to thrash an Integra Type
> R has not presented itself and I'm not going to waste my time trying to
> find one to abuse free of charge.
>
> > So I think my
> > girlfreind's FWD Elantra gets her back and forth to work ju! st great, has a
> > HUGE warranty, and meets her needs *perfectly*? Yes. I think it does. If
> > she wants a sport ride she can learn to drive a stick and take out my car or
> > one of the bikes.
>
> Yeah, and if she wants a new RWD sedan with a smooth and vibration-free
> engine and a manual transmission she'll have virtually no reasonably
> priced options like me. It doesn't bother you that while her car will
> understeer when she gets into the habit of driving badly, it will also
> understeer more easily and give her less of a chance to avoid potentially
> dangerous situations? Or that the drivetrain won't last as long and will
> be a PITA to work on? Buying a newer PoS makes no sense to me when there
> are older properly designed and built vehicles on the used market at
> similar prices.
>
> > There's two ways of looking at it, as I see it - the FWDs are ! practical,
>
> If the same car were RWD, would i! t be imp ractical? The question is not
> of practicality, it's about the manufacturers ripping buyers off and the
> lack of choice we're now presented with. Even if you aren't using all the
> potential of a RWD, a FWD does have a different driving feel - it's
> repulsive to me. Manufacturers know FWD sucks, but they also know they
> can pocket more money by selling FWDs at RWD prices.
>
> > and
> > they are filling a need. In today's market, there's no shortage of choices.
>
> You must be kidding. Where are the manual transmissions? Where are the
> RWDs? Where are the inline six cylinder engines? Where are the
> counterbalanced smaller four cylinders? Where are the full size cars?
> Where are the wagons? A good number of combinations one might choose are
> only available on high priced european imports, if at all. And let's face
> it, the difference in price between a new BM! W 3-series and a new Hyundai
> is not merely because of the FWD/RWD difference. There is definitely room
> for someone to make a line of cars (coupe, sedan, wagon) with
> counterbalanced fours, or optional inline sixes and V8s, and manual and
> auto transmission options - and they could easily come in at a very
> reasonable price range. There is a huge gap in the market - everybody
> makes chintzy disposable junk from low priced to mid priced. Then there
> are the high priced RWDs. Where are the low priced and mid priced RWDs?
> Geez - the Australian car makers give their buyers more options than
> what's available in the US market despite the much smaller number of units
> sold.
>
> > If you want a truck or a car or big one or a small one or electric or
> > handeling or power or any mix of any of those it can be had. Great.
>
> Sorry, but that's not the case.
! >
> > And if
> > it turns out that some! one with more money than you spent twice as much on a
> > car slower than yours because of some acronym and plastic - do you know
> > what? You'll beat him at the next stop light or the next track day and that
> > will be your reward. It's always mine.
>
> Sure - that might well be the case if I could buy a reasonably priced RWD.
> The early Miatas are special to me because they're one of a very few
> options which make sense. They're not great, but they can be had
> unencumbered by unnecessary stuff like A/C and power steering etc, and
> they're available very cheap used with a nice manual transmission. The
> current Miata is too expensive for what it has become (or should I say
> what it has failed to become). Of course, a 1990 Miata is not going to
> cut it for a family car or a high-speed long-distance tourer. It's when
> you start to look for a family car that you either have to ! swallow very
> high prices or endure FWD and an auto transmission (you can probably throw
> in a lack-lustre V6 too).
> _______________________________________________
> Miata mailing list
> (email redacted)
> ftl.realbig.com/mailman/listinfo/miata


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Mail From: pete (Pete Naylor)


Larry Alster wrote...

> What it boils down to is Peter is the only one that knows anything about cars.

Nope. Plenty of other people have known that RWD is a better solution
than FWD, and plenty of people have known that manual transmissions give
more control and better fuel economy, and plenty of people have known that
inline fours and V6s are vibration prone etc etc etc. Most of this stuff
has been known for many decades. In fact, it's reasonable to assume that
the many people on the list who own RWD, manual transmission Miatas know
most of it from experience.

> Guess all those guys driving the Real-Time Acuras for all those years killing everyone else in the class were just doing it because they didn't know that they were driving cars that drove from the wrong wheels.

I shouldn't have to explain this. Racing is more about the driver than
anything else. Given the same driver in a car which was as well prepared
but designed around a sound RWD platform their results might well have
been better and their successes longer lived. As I've mentioned several
times already in this discussion, a well implemented FWD car can indeed be
better in some situations then a poorly implemented RWD, but that doesn't
mean that FWD is a better solution than RWD. Nor does it make it exciting
when a manufacturer announces yet another boring FWD product.

This read-only message was archived from a public mail list.
Mail From: berck (Berck E. Nash)

Pete Naylor wrote:

> Nope. Plenty of other people have known that RWD is a better solution
> than FWD, and plenty of people have known that manual transmissions give
> more control and better fuel economy, and plenty of people have known that

And even more people know that a manual transmission, "is too hard to
drive." Actually, I think the fuel economy thing is probably not true
these days with modern automatics.

> inline fours and V6s are vibration prone etc etc etc. Most of this stuff

I4's are vibration-prone? I don't notice engine vibration in my Miata,
but I sure do notice it from the I6 in my Ford pickup. There's a lot
more to it than engine layout.

Mount a V6 sideways and it's just fine.

This read-only message was archived from a public mail list.
Mail From: AbeFM (Abraham Mara)

We here in San Diego play unfortunate host to what is possibly one of the highest densities of this in the nation - right in my neighborhood there's obscene amount of money being spent on this - and the cars are s-l-o-w - way way slower than stock in many cases - and the drivers simply don't care. I can't tell you how many civics I've seen driving around with 3 lug nuts. There's plenty of cars with three or four bost guages, a couple of tacs, and literally too many air/fuel meters to count. And they are not even hooked up. Phony blow-off vavles are popular. But talk to the owners of these cars, and many of them will stragiht up tell you that they know their car is slower and handles worse this way - they will volenteer the information - and they just like it that way.

And about people "feeling" the sluggish car...
My freind's sister, who was raised in a family of car nuts, had been driving a car for weeks - complaining that the tire was "low". Well, sure, the rim was bent when she hit the curb that busted the front right shock right off the car. Just plain nothing there. And she had no idea. You could walk to the car, bump it, and watch it bounce and bounce in front of you - and it didnt phase her at all. Does your average integra provide more performance than she'll EVER need? My girlfreind has NEVER squealed a tire in her life. My sister might drive hard and has owed a camero and an MR-2... You go after what you need. Affordablity and reliability are higher on most people's lists (hence my sister's current Civic).
-Abe.
P.S. Like the new sig. :-P
----- Original Message -----
From: Bryan Wyatt
Today's rice burner fad is an outgrowth of this "apathy". When parents buy their kid a first car, what's it likely to be? A Civic. Well, that kid, with warmer blood than his/her parents, doesn't want his car to look as boring as it really is, so out come the stickers, wings, cut springs, etc. Ask the kid when the last time the oil changed, and I'll bet they couldn't tell you. Do they ever drive it hard? Not likely. As long as they can get to school and go hang out with their friends in their "cool" car, they're happy (and why not?).
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Mail From: AbeFM (Abraham Mara)

What's a Mazda3 get for mileage compared to a miata? Really, why not an
MR-2 which has advantages of both? Front engine is a tired and dated
design - all that mass out at the poles....
-Abe.
P.S. what about porsche
----- Original Message -----
From: "Larry Alster" <(email redacted)>
> Nah
>
> That's offset by CV joints that don't last anywhere near as long as drive
> shaft u joints. and usually cost a ton more to have replaced.
>

This read-only message was archived from a public mail list.
Mail From: pete (Pete Naylor)


Abraham Mara wrote...

> What's a Mazda3 get for mileage compared to a miata?

Better mileage - but I don't think we can draw any conclusions from that
since they use entirely different engines, have different masses and use
different gear ratios.

> Really, why not an
> MR-2 which has advantages of both? Front engine is a tired and dated
> design - all that mass out at the poles....

Mid-engine designs are always going to become niche products. It is the
best for handling, but front engine rear drive is the next best thing. I
loved the 914 I owned for a while, and I intend to buy a Boxster sometime
too, but I would never dream of mid-engine designs becoming widespread.

Speaking of options... anyone recall the Buick Bengal concept? It was
FWD, but it had the transaxle ahead of the engine (just like driving a
mid-engine car backwards). Still a sucky end result, but an improvement
over the FWD nonsense that people are currently wasting their money on.

> P.S. what about porsche

I don't know what you're asking Abe.