Miata List Archive

This read-only message was archived from a public mail list.
Mail From: berck (Berck E. Nash)

So I've had my Valentine1 for 6 months now and love it. It's saved my butt
countless times. I've noticed something of late that has started to cause
frustration:

Red LED lights. LED lighting makes so much more sense for a variety of
reasons, most importantly being that they require very little energy and
never burn out. I've seen them in traffic lights for some time now, which
makes sense. Only, I've noticed, that if I'm close enough to a red LED
traffic light it will set off the laser detection in the valentine 1, which
is obnoxious. After getting used to this, the other day, I had an even
weirder thing happen. I came to a stop behind a car at a normal red light,
and the laser detection went off. After following this car for awhile, I
finally realized that its tail lights were LED's and were setting off the
laser detection. I can only guess that LED emissions are somewhat sloppy
and cross over into the infrared band as well as the visible band. If LED
tail lights get much more common, this is going to be a REAL nuisance.
Anyone else noticed this? Any ideas on what the future holds?

This read-only message was archived from a public mail list.
Mail From: Steven.Kamp (Kamp, Steven)

I get it all the time now. It is worse with SUV's as the taillight is at the same height as my V1. My V1 is in between the rearview mirror and the top of the windshield so it is up pretty high. The first few times it happened it made me very nervous. Mine also goes off sometimes from my EMPEG remote. I think it will continue to get worse. Most of the annoyance is in stop and go and you really can't speed much so just turn it off for a bit.


Steve
99 Silver SP

-----Original Message-----
From: Berck E. Nash [mailto:(email redacted)]
Sent: Wednesday, June 19, 2002 1:42 PM
To: Miata Enthusiast's List
Subject: [Miata] Valentine1 Laser Falsing... (NMC)

charset="iso-8859-1"

So I've had my Valentine1 for 6 months now and love it. It's saved my butt
countless times. I've noticed something of late that has started to cause
frustration:

Red LED lights. LED lighting makes so much more sense for a variety of
reasons, most importantly being that they require very little energy and
never burn out. I've seen them in traffic lights for some time now, which
makes sense. Only, I've noticed, that if I'm close enough to a red LED
traffic light it will set off the laser detection in the valentine 1, which
is obnoxious. After getting used to this, the other day, I had an even
weirder thing happen. I came to a stop behind a car at a normal red light,
and the laser detection went off. After following this car for awhile, I
finally realized that its tail lights were LED's and were setting off the
laser detection. I can only guess that LED emissions are somewhat sloppy
and cross over into the infrared band as well as the visible band. If LED
tail lights get much more common, this is going to be a REAL nuisance.
Anyone else noticed this? Any ideas on what the future holds?

_______________________________________________
Miata mailing list
(email redacted)
realbig.com/mailman/listinfo/miata

This read-only message was archived from a public mail list.
Mail From: bfranks (Brad Franks)

I've had a small number of Laser falses that scared the shit out of me. At
the time I didn't attribute them to LED's but it certianly *does* make sense
and your IR leakage theory is what also occurred to me as you described the
problem.

The other thing to look out for is the increase in IR remote controls for in
car stereo and DVD players as well as IR motion detectors. I'm curious to
hear what Valentine has to say about it, have you sent them an email or
called their support line yet? If you don't want to I'll do it...

Brad


----- Original Message -----
From: "Berck E. Nash" <(email redacted)>
To: "Miata Enthusiast's List" <(email redacted)>
Sent: Wednesday, June 19, 2002 11:42 AM
Subject: [Miata] Valentine1 Laser Falsing... (NMC)


> So I've had my Valentine1 for 6 months now and love it. It's saved my
butt
> countless times. I've noticed something of late that has started to cause
> frustration:
>
> Red LED lights. LED lighting makes so much more sense for a variety of
> reasons, most importantly being that they require very little energy and
> never burn out. I've seen them in traffic lights for some time now, which
> makes sense. Only, I've noticed, that if I'm close enough to a red LED
> traffic light it will set off the laser detection in the valentine 1,
which
> is obnoxious. After getting used to this, the other day, I had an even
> weirder thing happen. I came to a stop behind a car at a normal red
light,
> and the laser detection went off. After following this car for awhile, I
> finally realized that its tail lights were LED's and were setting off the
> laser detection. I can only guess that LED emissions are somewhat sloppy
> and cross over into the infrared band as well as the visible band. If LED
> tail lights get much more common, this is going to be a REAL nuisance.
> Anyone else noticed this? Any ideas on what the future holds?
>
> _______________________________________________
> Miata mailing list
> (email redacted)
> realbig.com/mailman/listinfo/miata

This read-only message was archived from a public mail list.
Mail From: dwynne (Dennis Wynne)

My V1s are older, so are not the latest tech stuff. Both are mounted
high (above the rear view mirror).

When I had a high-end Sony stereo w/remote the remote would set one off
pretty regularly. If I had not sold the car (and stereo) I was thinking
of sending the remote into Valentine so they could "tune" it out of future
V1s.

I have not had any troubles with the LED tail lights, but lately some of
those big, generator driven road signs set off the laser detector. These
are the ones with bright lights spelling out

"Construction Area" "Speed Limit 45" "$200 fine for speeding" "Click it or
ticket"

rotating through the display.

I have been "shot" several times by cops with laser guns - the detector
does not give you any warning. I see the cop, he shoots, the V1 goes off.
There is just so little scatter available (from shooting other cars) that
it really can't help much. I would think if you are speeding and they
are using laser, you better get out your pen to sign the ticket - V1 or
no V1.

I guess you could contact Valentine and see what they say, or you can just
disable the laser via the "debug" menu (or old fashioned duct tape).

I do love the V1s though, once you have arrows you never want to go back. I
have little battery operated Bel I use on the motorcycles. All it does it
beep, a big let down after using the V1s :-)

Dennis


At 01:44 PM 06/19/2002 -0500, Kamp, Steven wrote:
>I get it all the time now. It is worse with SUV's as the taillight is at
>the same height as my V1. My V1 is in between the rearview mirror and the
>top of the windshield so it is up pretty high. The first few times it
>happened it made me very nervous. Mine also goes off sometimes from my
>EMPEG remote. I think it will continue to get worse. Most of the annoyance
>is in stop and go and you really can't speed much so just turn it off for
>a bit.
>
>
>Steve
>99 Silver SP
>
> -----Original Message-----
>From: Berck E. Nash [mailto:(email redacted)]
>Sent: Wednesday, June 19, 2002 1:42 PM
>To: Miata Enthusiast's List
>Subject: [Miata] Valentine1 Laser Falsing... (NMC)
>
>charset="iso-8859-1"
>
>So I've had my Valentine1 for 6 months now and love it. It's saved my butt
>countless times. I've noticed something of late that has started to cause
>frustration:
>
>Red LED lights. LED lighting makes so much more sense for a variety of
>reasons, most importantly being that they require very little energy and
>never burn out. I've seen them in traffic lights for some time now, which
>makes sense. Only, I've noticed, that if I'm close enough to a red LED
>traffic light it will set off the laser detection in the valentine 1, which
>is obnoxious. After getting used to this, the other day, I had an even
>weirder thing happen. I came to a stop behind a car at a normal red light,
>and the laser detection went off. After following this car for awhile, I
>finally realized that its tail lights were LED's and were setting off the
>laser detection. I can only guess that LED emissions are somewhat sloppy
>and cross over into the infrared band as well as the visible band. If LED
>tail lights get much more common, this is going to be a REAL nuisance.
>Anyone else noticed this? Any ideas on what the future holds?
>
>_______________________________________________
>Miata mailing list
>(email redacted)
>realbig.com/mailman/listinfo/miata
>
>
>_______________________________________________
>Miata mailing list
>(email redacted)
>realbig.com/mailman/listinfo/miata

This read-only message was archived from a public mail list.
Mail From: berck (Berck E. Nash)

> I have been "shot" several times by cops with laser guns - the detector
> does not give you any warning. I see the cop, he shoots, the V1 goes off.
> There is just so little scatter available (from shooting other cars) that
> it really can't help much. I would think if you are speeding and they
> are using laser, you better get out your pen to sign the ticket - V1 or
> no V1.

I thought the same way until the laser detection saved my ass one day in
Florida. I was doing about 90 down a nice straight stretch of I-75 (three
lanes on each side). Almost no traffic, only one car ahead of me.
DEE-DOO-DEE-DOO the detector went WILD, I slammed on the brakes and was
doing 60 in no time. A few seconds later I saw the cop, watched him aim the
laser gun at me, and screaming went the V1. I was so happy I was grinning
for quite a few miles. It was also the first time the laser sound had ever
gone off. So, if it's a straight line, and the car in front of you gets
tagged, you'll pick it up.

But, most cops are clever and are hiding around a curve, so laser detection
doesn't do you a lick of good. Florida state troopers use quite a bit of
laser and Ka band. Never saw anythign else in Florida. In GA there's LOTS
and LOTS of laser. In Texas, I've never seen a laser gun. So, while they
are getting more common, they're really expensive, and thankfully they're
still in the minority.

This read-only message was archived from a public mail list.
Mail From: berck (Berck E. Nash)

Before e-mailing him, I figured I'd check out previously posted answers...
It seems that Mike has researched the problem (though this doesn't mention
traffic lights), and has decided that there isn't much he can do...

valentine1.com/lab/Previously7.asp
----- Original Message -----
From: "Brad Franks" <(email redacted)>
To: "Berck E. Nash" <(email redacted)>; "Miata Enthusiast's List"
<(email redacted)>
Sent: Wednesday, June 19, 2002 2:54 PM
Subject: Re: [Miata] Valentine1 Laser Falsing... (NMC)


> charset="iso-8859-1"
>
> I've had a small number of Laser falses that scared the shit out of me. At
> the time I didn't attribute them to LED's but it certianly *does* make
sense
> and your IR leakage theory is what also occurred to me as you described
the
> problem.
>
> The other thing to look out for is the increase in IR remote controls for
in
> car stereo and DVD players as well as IR motion detectors. I'm curious to
> hear what Valentine has to say about it, have you sent them an email or
> called their support line yet? If you don't want to I'll do it...
>
> Brad
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Berck E. Nash" <(email redacted)>
> To: "Miata Enthusiast's List" <(email redacted)>
> Sent: Wednesday, June 19, 2002 11:42 AM
> Subject: [Miata] Valentine1 Laser Falsing... (NMC)
>
>
> > So I've had my Valentine1 for 6 months now and love it. It's saved my
> butt
> > countless times. I've noticed something of late that has started to
cause
> > frustration:
> >
> > Red LED lights. LED lighting makes so much more sense for a variety of
> > reasons, most importantly being that they require very little energy and
> > never burn out. I've seen them in traffic lights for some time now,
which
> > makes sense. Only, I've noticed, that if I'm close enough to a red LED
> > traffic light it will set off the laser detection in the valentine 1,
> which
> > is obnoxious. After getting used to this, the other day, I had an even
> > weirder thing happen. I came to a stop behind a car at a normal red
> light,
> > and the laser detection went off. After following this car for awhile,
I
> > finally realized that its tail lights were LED's and were setting off
the
> > laser detection. I can only guess that LED emissions are somewhat
sloppy
> > and cross over into the infrared band as well as the visible band. If
LED
> > tail lights get much more common, this is going to be a REAL nuisance.
> > Anyone else noticed this? Any ideas on what the future holds?
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Miata mailing list
> > (email redacted)
> > realbig.com/mailman/listinfo/miata
>
> _______________________________________________
> Miata mailing list
> (email redacted)
> realbig.com/mailman/listinfo/miata
>

This read-only message was archived from a public mail list.
Mail From: bfranks (Brad Franks)

Dennis,

Are those signs hitting your Laser or are they (more likely) setting off X
or K band? I'd assume it's the latter as a lot of municipalities have worked
in conjunction with several radar detector manufacturers to develop an
"emergency" warning system called "Safety Warning Systems" or SWS. It emits
a specific frequency of X and/or K band signals that can be detected by the
detector as specifically "construction ahead," "emergency vehicle ahead,"
"accident ahead," "train crossing closed," etc. These specific signals are
interpreted and returned to the user via the radars interface. Detectors
without this functionality built in (V-1 in this case) just detect them as X
or K band radars.

Check out safetyradar.com/ for more information.

As far as no warning with police operated lasers - you *do* have a warning
actually. These are essentially laser range finders that bounce 2 laser
echos off of your vehicle and compare the distance travelled between them
agains the time between pulses to determine your speed. Most are set up with
the secondary pulse exactly one second behind the primary pulse. You have 1
second to hit the brakes and get your *average* speed within limits. For
instance if you are in a 60 mph zone and are travelling at 70 mph, you have
exactly one second to get your car down to 50 mph so your average speed is
legal - (70 + 50) / 2 = 60 mph.

Brad


----- Original Message -----
From: "Dennis Wynne" <(email redacted)>
>
> I have not had any troubles with the LED tail lights, but lately some of
> those big, generator driven road signs set off the laser detector. These
> are the ones with bright lights spelling out
>
> "Construction Area" "Speed Limit 45" "$200 fine for speeding" "Click it or
> ticket"
>
> rotating through the display.
>
> I have been "shot" several times by cops with laser guns - the detector
> does not give you any warning. I see the cop, he shoots, the V1 goes off.
> There is just so little scatter available (from shooting other cars) that
> it really can't help much. I would think if you are speeding and they
> are using laser, you better get out your pen to sign the ticket - V1 or
> no V1.

This read-only message was archived from a public mail list.
Mail From: berck (Berck E. Nash)

>From valentine1.com/lab/Previously3.asp

One more fact: some folks think those highway warning signs, usually on
trailers, that alert your detector are Safety Radar. Not true. Instead, they
are shams to get around the FCC prohibition on drone transmitters (the
anti-speed forces love the idea of drones as a way of annoying detector
users). There's no encoded message here, just plain old radar. Still, after
years of my competitors advertising Safety Alert and Safety Warning System,
I guess I can't blame folks for expecting to find it somewhere.

----- Original Message -----
From: "Brad Franks" <(email redacted)>
To: "Miata Enthusiast's List" <(email redacted)>; "Dennis Wynne"
<(email redacted)>
Sent: Wednesday, June 19, 2002 3:31 PM
Subject: Re: [Miata] Valentine1 Laser Falsing... (NMC)


> charset="iso-8859-1"
>
> Dennis,
>
> Are those signs hitting your Laser or are they (more likely) setting off X
> or K band? I'd assume it's the latter as a lot of municipalities have
worked
> in conjunction with several radar detector manufacturers to develop an
> "emergency" warning system called "Safety Warning Systems" or SWS. It
emits
> a specific frequency of X and/or K band signals that can be detected by
the
> detector as specifically "construction ahead," "emergency vehicle ahead,"
> "accident ahead," "train crossing closed," etc. These specific signals are
> interpreted and returned to the user via the radars interface. Detectors
> without this functionality built in (V-1 in this case) just detect them as
X
> or K band radars.
>
> Check out safetyradar.com/ for more information.
>
> As far as no warning with police operated lasers - you *do* have a warning
> actually. These are essentially laser range finders that bounce 2 laser
> echos off of your vehicle and compare the distance travelled between them
> agains the time between pulses to determine your speed. Most are set up
with
> the secondary pulse exactly one second behind the primary pulse. You have
1
> second to hit the brakes and get your *average* speed within limits. For
> instance if you are in a 60 mph zone and are travelling at 70 mph, you
have
> exactly one second to get your car down to 50 mph so your average speed is
> legal - (70 + 50) / 2 = 60 mph.
>
> Brad
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Dennis Wynne" <(email redacted)>
> >
> > I have not had any troubles with the LED tail lights, but lately some of
> > those big, generator driven road signs set off the laser detector. These
> > are the ones with bright lights spelling out
> >
> > "Construction Area" "Speed Limit 45" "$200 fine for speeding" "Click it
or
> > ticket"
> >
> > rotating through the display.
> >
> > I have been "shot" several times by cops with laser guns - the detector
> > does not give you any warning. I see the cop, he shoots, the V1 goes
off.
> > There is just so little scatter available (from shooting other cars)
that
> > it really can't help much. I would think if you are speeding and they
> > are using laser, you better get out your pen to sign the ticket - V1 or
> > no V1.
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Miata mailing list
> (email redacted)
> realbig.com/mailman/listinfo/miata
>

This read-only message was archived from a public mail list.
Mail From: dwynne (Dennis Wynne)

No, it is the "L" and the "Scare the cr*p out of me" alert. They are
putting in a bunch of new overpasses and exits and stuff right down the
road from the office and at one time it would set it off EVERY time I drove
by. I did it in both cars and both V1s got the "L" . It did not set off my
little Bel (which has the SWS set up). As they have been working they
have moved the signs around. They no longer set off the laser detectors.
I don't know if it is the angle or the distance to the road, but the signs
are the same the alerts are gone.

I am afraid my reaction time might not be good enough to beat the laser
gun - for sure the guy riding my back bumper will fail to slow down as
quick :-)

Someone posted here or someplace about some state tossing out all the
laser tickets as illegal. Let us hope that trend continues.

If it were not for riding/driving the back roads I don't know that I would
bother having any detector. You can always find a "rabbit" around town
and for sure on any trip you can follow. Heck, I do this even though
I have detectors. I have had them pull the person over in front of me
several times and leave me alone. I got a couple of tickets due to
instant on RADAR so I sort of gave up on driving as fast as I want to
go anytime I want to do it :-)

Dennis


At 12:31 PM 06/19/2002 -0700, Brad Franks wrote:
>Dennis,
>
>Are those signs hitting your Laser or are they (more likely) setting off X
>or K band? I'd assume it's the latter as a lot of municipalities have worked
>in conjunction with several radar detector manufacturers to develop an
>"emergency" warning system called "Safety Warning Systems" or SWS. It emits
>a specific frequency of X and/or K band signals that can be detected by the
>detector as specifically "construction ahead," "emergency vehicle ahead,"
>"accident ahead," "train crossing closed," etc. These specific signals are
>interpreted and returned to the user via the radars interface. Detectors
>without this functionality built in (V-1 in this case) just detect them as X
>or K band radars.
>
>Check out safetyradar.com/ for more information.
>
>As far as no warning with police operated lasers - you *do* have a warning
>actually. These are essentially laser range finders that bounce 2 laser
>echos off of your vehicle and compare the distance travelled between them
>agains the time between pulses to determine your speed. Most are set up with
>the secondary pulse exactly one second behind the primary pulse. You have 1
>second to hit the brakes and get your *average* speed within limits. For
>instance if you are in a 60 mph zone and are travelling at 70 mph, you have
>exactly one second to get your car down to 50 mph so your average speed is
>legal - (70 + 50) / 2 = 60 mph.
>
>Brad
>
>
>----- Original Message -----
>From: "Dennis Wynne" <(email redacted)>
> >
> > I have not had any troubles with the LED tail lights, but lately some of
> > those big, generator driven road signs set off the laser detector. These
> > are the ones with bright lights spelling out
> >
> > "Construction Area" "Speed Limit 45" "$200 fine for speeding" "Click it or
> > ticket"
> >
> > rotating through the display.
> >
> > I have been "shot" several times by cops with laser guns - the detector
> > does not give you any warning. I see the cop, he shoots, the V1 goes off.
> > There is just so little scatter available (from shooting other cars) that
> > it really can't help much. I would think if you are speeding and they
> > are using laser, you better get out your pen to sign the ticket - V1 or
> > no V1.

This read-only message was archived from a public mail list.
Mail From: tblough (Tom Blough)

I know a few officers that make it a point to ignore the first car in a line
of speeders and pull over one of the following vehicles.


Tom Blough &
"Molly" Red '99 LP
Avon, CT
Nutmeg Miata President/Webmaster
mailto:(email redacted)
nutmegmiata.org

"Driver does not carry cash - He's married"
FYI, Racecar spelled backwards is racecaR






-----Original Message-----
From: Dennis Wynne [mailto:(email redacted)]
Sent: Wednesday, June 19, 2002 3:46 PM
To: Brad Franks; Miata Enthusiast's List
Subject: Re: [Miata] Valentine1 Laser Falsing... (NMC)


No, it is the "L" and the "Scare the cr*p out of me" alert. They are
putting in a bunch of new overpasses and exits and stuff right down the
road from the office and at one time it would set it off EVERY time I drove
by. I did it in both cars and both V1s got the "L" . It did not set off my
little Bel (which has the SWS set up). As they have been working they
have moved the signs around. They no longer set off the laser detectors.
I don't know if it is the angle or the distance to the road, but the signs
are the same the alerts are gone.

I am afraid my reaction time might not be good enough to beat the laser
gun - for sure the guy riding my back bumper will fail to slow down as
quick :-)

Someone posted here or someplace about some state tossing out all the
laser tickets as illegal. Let us hope that trend continues.

If it were not for riding/driving the back roads I don't know that I would
bother having any detector. You can always find a "rabbit" around town
and for sure on any trip you can follow. Heck, I do this even though
I have detectors. I have had them pull the person over in front of me
several times and leave me alone. I got a couple of tickets due to
instant on RADAR so I sort of gave up on driving as fast as I want to
go anytime I want to do it :-)

Dennis


At 12:31 PM 06/19/2002 -0700, Brad Franks wrote:
>Dennis,
>
>Are those signs hitting your Laser or are they (more likely) setting off X
>or K band? I'd assume it's the latter as a lot of municipalities have
worked
>in conjunction with several radar detector manufacturers to develop an
>"emergency" warning system called "Safety Warning Systems" or SWS. It emits
>a specific frequency of X and/or K band signals that can be detected by the
>detector as specifically "construction ahead," "emergency vehicle ahead,"
>"accident ahead," "train crossing closed," etc. These specific signals are
>interpreted and returned to the user via the radars interface. Detectors
>without this functionality built in (V-1 in this case) just detect them as
X
>or K band radars.
>
>Check out safetyradar.com/ for more information.
>
>As far as no warning with police operated lasers - you *do* have a warning
>actually. These are essentially laser range finders that bounce 2 laser
>echos off of your vehicle and compare the distance travelled between them
>agains the time between pulses to determine your speed. Most are set up
with
>the secondary pulse exactly one second behind the primary pulse. You have 1
>second to hit the brakes and get your *average* speed within limits. For
>instance if you are in a 60 mph zone and are travelling at 70 mph, you have
>exactly one second to get your car down to 50 mph so your average speed is
>legal - (70 + 50) / 2 = 60 mph.
>
>Brad
>
>
>----- Original Message -----
>From: "Dennis Wynne" <(email redacted)>
> >
> > I have not had any troubles with the LED tail lights, but lately some of
> > those big, generator driven road signs set off the laser detector. These
> > are the ones with bright lights spelling out
> >
> > "Construction Area" "Speed Limit 45" "$200 fine for speeding" "Click it
or
> > ticket"
> >
> > rotating through the display.
> >
> > I have been "shot" several times by cops with laser guns - the detector
> > does not give you any warning. I see the cop, he shoots, the V1 goes
off.
> > There is just so little scatter available (from shooting other cars)
that
> > it really can't help much. I would think if you are speeding and they
> > are using laser, you better get out your pen to sign the ticket - V1 or
> > no V1.

_______________________________________________
Miata mailing list
(email redacted)
realbig.com/mailman/listinfo/miata

This read-only message was archived from a public mail list.
Mail From: Jon Etkins" <eccles (Jon Etkins)

On Wed, 19 Jun 2002 15:17:32 -0400, Berck E. Nash wrote:

>In Texas, I've never seen a laser gun. So, while they
>are getting more common, they're really expensive, and thankfully they're
>still in the minority.

Fortunately, the law enforcement departments around these parts seem to be
stuck with their trusty old K- and Ka-band radars. I suspect that as long
as they continue to bring in the revenue, there's little likelihood of the
government beancounters arming them with newer and more expensive weaponry.

Interestingly, my Escort 8500 doesn't seem to be subject to the V1's laser
falsing, though whether that's due to better selectivity or worse
sensitivity, I have no idea. It has only ever sounded a laser alarm once,
on a long straight stretch of rural interstate. I never saw a uniform,
bike or cruiser, but I suspect it was cop hiding in the bushes; fortunately
I was being a good boy that day. :)

Cheers,
Jon Etkins
10AE #1407 CS38 "BLU TOY" (His)
'02 Vivid Yellow "POLLEN" (Hers)
Texas Spokes & Tejas Miata clubs

This read-only message was archived from a public mail list.
Mail From: n6mod (Aleksandr Milewski)

On Wednesday 19 June 2002 11:42 am, Berck E. Nash wrote:

> I can only guess that LED emissions are somewhat sloppy
> and cross over into the infrared band as well as the visible band. If LED
> tail lights get much more common, this is going to be a REAL nuisance.

It's not that the LED's emit in IR. LED emissions are pretty narrow unless
you're talking about a "white" LED which is really a LED/fluorescent hybrid.

It's that the V1's sensor has some sensitivity in the visible. The V1 seems
to respond to any "modulated" light. I've seen the occasional false from my
empeg remote. The "SiliconView" lighted sign on 101 triggers it every time,
so I'm not surprised that construction signs set it off. If the sun is
shining on the V1 and I use the windshield washers, the spray of washer fluid
will modulate the light enough to cause a false.

But the thing that drove me crazy was a road trip in a BMW with LED dash
lighting. These lights are pulse-width modulated, and while they didn't cause
constant falsing, every time I took my coke out of the cupholder, the
reflection of the dash lights would trigger a the laser. And as V1 owners
know, the laser alert is NOT subtle.

-Zandr

This read-only message was archived from a public mail list.
Mail From: ian (Ian McCloghrie)

On Jun 19, 2002 Aleksandr Milewski wrote:
> It's that the V1's sensor has some sensitivity in the visible. The V1 seems
> to respond to any "modulated" light. I've seen the occasional false from my

This sensitivity definitely varies with the unit, too. The one in my
Miata (V1 purchased in 1998) will false laser whenever I move
the power windows (presumably that's noise on the power lines), from
the 101 billboard and from construction area light-array signs.

The V1 in my Audi, on the other hand (purchased in summer of 00) falses
a lot more often. All of the signs above, plus the floodlights from car
dealer lots (specifically the ones near my house), lots of falses from
LED taillights, and will also false pretty reliably whenever I go to
full throttle in first or second at night. That particular one is really
annoying.

> But the thing that drove me crazy was a road trip in a BMW with LED dash
> lighting. These lights are pulse-width modulated, and while they didn't cause
> constant falsing, every time I took my coke out of the cupholder, the

Hm. I wonder if that's what's setting it off in my S4, it's got
similar dash lighting.

--Ian
'99 Emerald Mica LP FM2 Turbo
'01 Audi S4

This read-only message was archived from a public mail list.
Mail From: berck (Berck E. Nash)

Hmmm... I've never noticed EM interference to set it off.... I can't see
how it would?
----- Original Message -----
From: "Ian McCloghrie" <(email redacted)>
To: "Aleksandr Milewski" <(email redacted)>
Cc: "Berck E. Nash" <(email redacted)>; "Miata Enthusiast's List"
<(email redacted)>
Sent: Wednesday, June 19, 2002 4:52 PM
Subject: Re: [Miata] Valentine1 Laser Falsing... (NMC)


> On Jun 19, 2002 Aleksandr Milewski wrote:
> > It's that the V1's sensor has some sensitivity in the visible. The V1
seems
> > to respond to any "modulated" light. I've seen the occasional false from
my
>
> This sensitivity definitely varies with the unit, too. The one in my
> Miata (V1 purchased in 1998) will false laser whenever I move
> the power windows (presumably that's noise on the power lines), from
> the 101 billboard and from construction area light-array signs.
>
> The V1 in my Audi, on the other hand (purchased in summer of 00) falses
> a lot more often. All of the signs above, plus the floodlights from car
> dealer lots (specifically the ones near my house), lots of falses from
> LED taillights, and will also false pretty reliably whenever I go to
> full throttle in first or second at night. That particular one is really
> annoying.
>
> > But the thing that drove me crazy was a road trip in a BMW with LED dash
> > lighting. These lights are pulse-width modulated, and while they didn't
cause
> > constant falsing, every time I took my coke out of the cupholder, the
>
> Hm. I wonder if that's what's setting it off in my S4, it's got
> similar dash lighting.
>
> --Ian
> '99 Emerald Mica LP FM2 Turbo
> '01 Audi S4
>

This read-only message was archived from a public mail list.
Mail From: n6mod (Aleksandr Milewski)

On Wednesday 19 June 2002 02:01 pm, Berck E. Nash wrote:
> charset="iso-8859-1"
>
> Hmmm... I've never noticed EM interference to set it off.... I can't see
> how it would?

Not EM interference, amplitude modulated light. PWM light sources with fast
switch times like LEDs and some lighted sign technologies seem to do it, but
the simple action of water droplets passing (quickly) between the sun and the
sensor are enough to look like modulated IR to the V1.

-Z

This read-only message was archived from a public mail list.
Mail From: berck (Berck E. Nash)

Well, I was referring to Ian's complaint that his power windows set it
off....
----- Original Message -----
From: "Aleksandr Milewski" <(email redacted)>
To: "Berck E. Nash" <(email redacted)>; <(email redacted)>
Cc: "Miata Enthusiast's List" <(email redacted)>
Sent: Wednesday, June 19, 2002 5:10 PM
Subject: Re: [Miata] Valentine1 Laser Falsing... (NMC)


> On Wednesday 19 June 2002 02:01 pm, Berck E. Nash wrote:
> > charset="iso-8859-1"
> >
> > Hmmm... I've never noticed EM interference to set it off.... I can't
see
> > how it would?
>
> Not EM interference, amplitude modulated light. PWM light sources with
fast
> switch times like LEDs and some lighted sign technologies seem to do it,
but
> the simple action of water droplets passing (quickly) between the sun and
the
> sensor are enough to look like modulated IR to the V1.
>
> -Z
>

This read-only message was archived from a public mail list.
Mail From: ian (Ian McCloghrie)

On Jun 19, 2002 "Berck E. Nash" wrote:
> Well, I was referring to Ian's complaint that his power windows set it
> off....

That was actually a typo on my part, it's the power MIRRORS that set
it off. But yeah.

I'm guessing it's noise on the power line leaking through the supply
in the V1 and tickling the IR receiver.

--Ian

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Mail From: carguy (David B)

You obviously don't drive in the biggest speed trap in the State - PLANO!!

A substantial portion of the city's revenues comes from traffic violations. They even have 6 Flag
type of waiting lines to pay your tickets.

And worse yet their officer's lie. I have had 3 tickets in the last 20 years. All have been in
Plano. 2 were when I was teaching my kids to drive and showing them how the speed traps work in
Plano. (2 blocks of 10 mph lower speed limit just as it gets out of a residential neighborhood). In
both cases we were both looking at the speedometer and we were under the limit. The 3rd time, I
coulda been speeding. Got a warrant issued for my arrest on 2 of them.

I knew some officers and they were definitely on a quota system.

The just love to post an officer on foot in the middle of an overpass on 75 and have 2-3 cars or
motorcycles hidden just a short distance beyond.

I refuse to shop in Plano. I recently moved 3 of my offices and I made sure not a one was close
enough to require anyone to have to drive thru Plano.

Jon Etkins wrote:
>
> On Wed, 19 Jun 2002 15:17:32 -0400, Berck E. Nash wrote:
>
> >In Texas, I've never seen a laser gun. So, while they
> >are getting more common, they're really expensive, and thankfully they're
> >still in the minority.
>
> Fortunately, the law enforcement departments around these parts seem to be
> stuck with their trusty old K- and Ka-band radars. I suspect that as long
> as they continue to bring in the revenue, there's little likelihood of the
> government beancounters arming them with newer and more expensive weaponry.
>
> Interestingly, my Escort 8500 doesn't seem to be subject to the V1's laser
> falsing, though whether that's due to better selectivity or worse
> sensitivity, I have no idea. It has only ever sounded a laser alarm once,
> on a long straight stretch of rural interstate. I never saw a uniform,
> bike or cruiser, but I suspect it was cop hiding in the bushes; fortunately
> I was being a good boy that day. :)
>
> Cheers,
> Jon Etkins
> 10AE #1407 CS38 "BLU TOY" (His)
> '02 Vivid Yellow "POLLEN" (Hers)
> Texas Spokes & Tejas Miata clubs
>
> _______________________________________________
> Miata mailing list
> (email redacted)
> realbig.com/mailman/listinfo/miata

This read-only message was archived from a public mail list.
Mail From: berck (Berck E. Nash)

No, I do NOT drive in Plano.. I used to live in Irving, and know what you
mean.... I avoided plano like the plague. Course, I got two irving tickets
that were pretty bad, but hired a wonderful traffic ticket lawyer. In fact,
if you'd like, e-mail me off list and I'll give you the name of the one I
used. $75 flat fee and they pretty much keep it off your record, frequently
reduce the fines as well. Typically it cost me the same as just paying it,
but the charges were dismissed, the city had to deal with my lawyer, and my
fines ended up being reduced enough that it was all even.
----- Original Message -----
From: "David B" <(email redacted)>
To: <unlisted-recipients:>; <no To-header on input>
Cc: "Miata Enthusiast's List" <(email redacted)>
Sent: Wednesday, June 19, 2002 9:08 PM
Subject: Re: [Miata] Valentine1 Laser Falsing... (NMC)


> You obviously don't drive in the biggest speed trap in the State - PLANO!!
>
> A substantial portion of the city's revenues comes from traffic
violations. They even have 6 Flag
> type of waiting lines to pay your tickets.
>
> And worse yet their officer's lie. I have had 3 tickets in the last 20
years. All have been in
> Plano. 2 were when I was teaching my kids to drive and showing them how
the speed traps work in
> Plano. (2 blocks of 10 mph lower speed limit just as it gets out of a
residential neighborhood). In
> both cases we were both looking at the speedometer and we were under the
limit. The 3rd time, I
> coulda been speeding. Got a warrant issued for my arrest on 2 of them.
>
> I knew some officers and they were definitely on a quota system.
>
> The just love to post an officer on foot in the middle of an overpass on
75 and have 2-3 cars or
> motorcycles hidden just a short distance beyond.
>
> I refuse to shop in Plano. I recently moved 3 of my offices and I made
sure not a one was close
> enough to require anyone to have to drive thru Plano.
>
> Jon Etkins wrote:
> >
> > On Wed, 19 Jun 2002 15:17:32 -0400, Berck E. Nash wrote:
> >
> > >In Texas, I've never seen a laser gun. So, while they
> > >are getting more common, they're really expensive, and thankfully
they're
> > >still in the minority.
> >
> > Fortunately, the law enforcement departments around these parts seem to
be
> > stuck with their trusty old K- and Ka-band radars. I suspect that as
long
> > as they continue to bring in the revenue, there's little likelihood of
the
> > government beancounters arming them with newer and more expensive
weaponry.
> >
> > Interestingly, my Escort 8500 doesn't seem to be subject to the V1's
laser
> > falsing, though whether that's due to better selectivity or worse
> > sensitivity, I have no idea. It has only ever sounded a laser alarm
once,
> > on a long straight stretch of rural interstate. I never saw a uniform,
> > bike or cruiser, but I suspect it was cop hiding in the bushes;
fortunately
> > I was being a good boy that day. :)
> >
> > Cheers,
> > Jon Etkins
> > 10AE #1407 CS38 "BLU TOY" (His)
> > '02 Vivid Yellow "POLLEN" (Hers)
> > Texas Spokes & Tejas Miata clubs
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Miata mailing list
> > (email redacted)
> > realbig.com/mailman/listinfo/miata
> _______________________________________________
> Miata mailing list
> (email redacted)
> realbig.com/mailman/listinfo/miata
>

This read-only message was archived from a public mail list.
Mail From: m.d.fleischer (Mike Fleischer)

Probably behind a Chevy Trailblazer. These SUV's use LED's in their brake
lights. Other cars will be using these also. I hear the newer V1's have
better rejection. The LED's set off my V1 all the time... I suppose I
could mount a set of ir LED's on the leading edge of my car as a "jammer".
Tell them its a remote for my garage...

What else sets the V1 Laser detector off? Police Lidar's. Got nailed this
January in Ferris Texas on US45 heading home from TWS. This was stupid of
me, and I attribute it to a long weekend and feeling a bit sick. Of course
I was in a Red Corvette which didn't help. Neither did my going over the
speed limit. It was nice to have a little warning light go off to tell me I
got a ticket... Typical Texas setup... Guy on bridge, row of two cars
(probably all the cops in Ferris Texas) pulling folks over.

Also to the poster who hates Plano... I live in Plano, and I can't imagine
any cop needing to lie about someone speeding here... They can go out to
Central and pick and choose anytime they wanted... Sorry about your
misfortune.

Mike

----- Original Message -----
From: "Berck E. Nash" <(email redacted)>
To: "Miata Enthusiast's List" <(email redacted)>
Sent: Wednesday, June 19, 2002 1:42 PM
Subject: [Miata] Valentine1 Laser Falsing... (NMC)


> charset="iso-8859-1"
>
> So I've had my Valentine1 for 6 months now and love it. It's saved my
butt
> countless times. I've noticed something of late that has started to cause
> frustration:
>
> Red LED lights. LED lighting makes so much more sense for a variety of
> reasons, most importantly being that they require very little energy and
> never burn out. I've seen them in traffic lights for some time now, which
> makes sense. Only, I've noticed, that if I'm close enough to a red LED
> traffic light it will set off the laser detection in the valentine 1,
which
> is obnoxious. After getting used to this, the other day, I had an even
> weirder thing happen. I came to a stop behind a car at a normal red
light,
> and the laser detection went off. After following this car for awhile, I
> finally realized that its tail lights were LED's and were setting off the
> laser detection. I can only guess that LED emissions are somewhat sloppy
> and cross over into the infrared band as well as the visible band. If LED
> tail lights get much more common, this is going to be a REAL nuisance.
> Anyone else noticed this? Any ideas on what the future holds?
>
> _______________________________________________
> Miata mailing list
> (email redacted)
> realbig.com/mailman/listinfo/miata

This read-only message was archived from a public mail list.
Mail From: dwynne (Dennis Wynne)

It is "funny" we were talking about this, I worked a bit late last night
and I am tooling home on Briley Parkway (like an Interstate, normally
speed limit 55 - 45 in the construction zone). They widened it to 4 lanes near
where Opryland was and people FLY through there (something about 4 lanes
makes them go way fast) and they check it pretty heavy.

Last night, 2 motorcycle cops with laser! I was on a motorcycle and they
didn't even check my speed. I was going a bit over the limit so I was glad
they did not, but I would like to "Test" the laser in the Bel I use on
the bikes (preferably w/o getting a ticket). I move over to the slow
lane if it is open - they normally eye-ball the folks in the hammer
lanes. Or it could have been "courtesy" since I was on the bike, he
had gun in hand but never pointed it at me or pulled the trigger.

I figured I jinxed myself talking about LIDAR here :-)

Dennis


At 03:17 PM 06/19/2002 -0400, Berck E. Nash wrote:
>charset="iso-8859-1"
>
>
>I thought the same way until the laser detection saved my ass one day in
>Florida. I was doing about 90 down a nice straight stretch of I-75 (three
>lanes on each side). Almost no traffic, only one car ahead of me.
>DEE-DOO-DEE-DOO the detector went WILD, I slammed on the brakes and was
>doing 60 in no time. A few seconds later I saw the cop, watched him aim the
>laser gun at me, and screaming went the V1. I was so happy I was grinning
>for quite a few miles. It was also the first time the laser sound had ever
>gone off. So, if it's a straight line, and the car in front of you gets
>tagged, you'll pick it up.
>
>But, most cops are clever and are hiding around a curve, so laser detection
>doesn't do you a lick of good. Florida state troopers use quite a bit of
>laser and Ka band. Never saw anythign else in Florida. In GA there's LOTS
>and LOTS of laser. In Texas, I've never seen a laser gun. So, while they
>are getting more common, they're really expensive, and thankfully they're
>still in the minority.

This read-only message was archived from a public mail list.
Mail From: rsalder (Ralph Alder)

Has anyone thought of a possible positive from all this discussion? If
detectors can be made to false from these other sources, could it be
possible to cause problems with the laser transmitter/reciever using the
same technology...i.e. shining some white LEDs from the front of the car?
The laser unit is looking for some very weak signals bouncing off a moving
car...could not a stronger signal mask that somehow?

My question probably illustrates my lack of knowledge of laser technology.
;-(

Ralph Alder
Tustin, CA
'90 Classic Red w/Yellow Stripes
Team Aerocharger

----- Original Message -----
From: "Aleksandr Milewski" <(email redacted)>
To: "Berck E. Nash" <(email redacted)>; "Miata Enthusiast's List"
<(email redacted)>
Sent: Wednesday, June 19, 2002 13:45
Subject: Re: [Miata] Valentine1 Laser Falsing... (NMC)


> On Wednesday 19 June 2002 11:42 am, Berck E. Nash wrote:
>
> > I can only guess that LED emissions are somewhat sloppy
> > and cross over into the infrared band as well as the visible band. If
LED
> > tail lights get much more common, this is going to be a REAL nuisance.
>
> It's not that the LED's emit in IR. LED emissions are pretty narrow unless
> you're talking about a "white" LED which is really a LED/fluorescent
hybrid.
>
> It's that the V1's sensor has some sensitivity in the visible. The V1
seems
> to respond to any "modulated" light. I've seen the occasional false from
my
> empeg remote. The "SiliconView" lighted sign on 101 triggers it every
time,
> so I'm not surprised that construction signs set it off. If the sun is
> shining on the V1 and I use the windshield washers, the spray of washer
fluid
> will modulate the light enough to cause a false.
>
> But the thing that drove me crazy was a road trip in a BMW with LED dash
> lighting. These lights are pulse-width modulated, and while they didn't
cause
> constant falsing, every time I took my coke out of the cupholder, the
> reflection of the dash lights would trigger a the laser. And as V1 owners
> know, the laser alert is NOT subtle.
>
> -Zandr
>
> _______________________________________________
> Miata mailing list
> (email redacted)
> realbig.com/mailman/listinfo/miata
>

This read-only message was archived from a public mail list.
Mail From: dwynne (Dennis Wynne)

The market is way ahead of you. The cops will often aim at the front
license plate - nice flat surface to bounce the laser off of.

Several companies make plate frame "jammers". You hook them up to 12v
and the LEDs on the frame are supposed to interfere with the LIDAR
guns. Seems like I read a test that some of them actually worked,
to some degree. Shows more promise than a LEGAL (by FCC standards)
RADAR jammer.

Dennis


At 02:11 PM 06/20/2002 -0700, Ralph Alder wrote:
>Has anyone thought of a possible positive from all this discussion? If
>detectors can be made to false from these other sources, could it be
>possible to cause problems with the laser transmitter/reciever using the
>same technology...i.e. shining some white LEDs from the front of the car?
>The laser unit is looking for some very weak signals bouncing off a moving
>car...could not a stronger signal mask that somehow?
>
>My question probably illustrates my lack of knowledge of laser technology.
>;-(
>
>Ralph Alder
>Tustin, CA
>'90 Classic Red w/Yellow Stripes
>Team Aerocharger
>
>----- Original Message -----
>From: "Aleksandr Milewski" <(email redacted)>
>To: "Berck E. Nash" <(email redacted)>; "Miata Enthusiast's List"
><(email redacted)>
>Sent: Wednesday, June 19, 2002 13:45
>Subject: Re: [Miata] Valentine1 Laser Falsing... (NMC)
>
>
> > On Wednesday 19 June 2002 11:42 am, Berck E. Nash wrote:
> >
> > > I can only guess that LED emissions are somewhat sloppy
> > > and cross over into the infrared band as well as the visible band. If
>LED
> > > tail lights get much more common, this is going to be a REAL nuisance.
> >
> > It's not that the LED's emit in IR. LED emissions are pretty narrow unless
> > you're talking about a "white" LED which is really a LED/fluorescent
>hybrid.
> >
> > It's that the V1's sensor has some sensitivity in the visible. The V1
>seems
> > to respond to any "modulated" light. I've seen the occasional false from
>my
> > empeg remote. The "SiliconView" lighted sign on 101 triggers it every
>time,
> > so I'm not surprised that construction signs set it off. If the sun is
> > shining on the V1 and I use the windshield washers, the spray of washer
>fluid
> > will modulate the light enough to cause a false.
> >
> > But the thing that drove me crazy was a road trip in a BMW with LED dash
> > lighting. These lights are pulse-width modulated, and while they didn't
>cause
> > constant falsing, every time I took my coke out of the cupholder, the
> > reflection of the dash lights would trigger a the laser. And as V1 owners
> > know, the laser alert is NOT subtle.
> >
> > -Zandr
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Miata mailing list
> > (email redacted)
> > realbig.com/mailman/listinfo/miata
> >
>
>
>_______________________________________________
>Miata mailing list
>(email redacted)
>realbig.com/mailman/listinfo/miata

This read-only message was archived from a public mail list.
Mail From: miatalist (Per K. Nielsen)

> Has anyone thought of a possible positive from all this discussion? If
> detectors can be made to false from these other sources, could it be
> possible to cause problems with the laser transmitter/reciever using the
> same technology...i.e. shining some white LEDs from the front of the car?

blinder.dk/

...don't know if it works...
--
Per & Pixie

This read-only message was archived from a public mail list.
Mail From: brow (C Brown)

Didn't see it posted the V1 can be set to ignore the front or rear laser
detector using the proper keyed in sequence on the front panel. I got an SUV
brake light attack the other day for the first time.
I have only needed the laser detector once, so either the front or the rear
might find itself disabled in the near future.

Was on valentineone.com/home.asp

But I can't find it now, might require a call.

Regards
CB&Stoker

----- Original Message -----
From: "Berck E. Nash" <(email redacted)>
To: "Brad Franks" <(email redacted)>; "Miata Enthusiast's List"
<(email redacted)>
Sent: Wednesday, June 19, 2002 3:27 PM
Subject: Re: [Miata] Valentine1 Laser Falsing... (NMC)


> charset="iso-8859-1"
> X-postinispam-levels: (C:98.7680 M:99.5536 P: 0.0029 S:62.2428 )
> X-postinispam-settings: 0 (0.1500:0.1500) m
> X-postinispam-addresses: from <(email redacted)>
>
> Before e-mailing him, I figured I'd check out previously posted answers...
> It seems that Mike has researched the problem (though this doesn't mention
> traffic lights), and has decided that there isn't much he can do...
>
> valentine1.com/lab/Previously7.asp
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Brad Franks" <(email redacted)>
> To: "Berck E. Nash" <(email redacted)>; "Miata Enthusiast's List"
> <(email redacted)>
> Sent: Wednesday, June 19, 2002 2:54 PM
> Subject: Re: [Miata] Valentine1 Laser Falsing... (NMC)
>
>
> > charset="iso-8859-1"
> >
> > I've had a small number of Laser falses that scared the shit out of me.
At
> > the time I didn't attribute them to LED's but it certianly *does* make
> sense
> > and your IR leakage theory is what also occurred to me as you described
> the
> > problem.
> >
> > The other thing to look out for is the increase in IR remote controls
for
> in
> > car stereo and DVD players as well as IR motion detectors. I'm curious
to
> > hear what Valentine has to say about it, have you sent them an email or
> > called their support line yet? If you don't want to I'll do it...
> >
> > Brad
> >
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Berck E. Nash" <(email redacted)>
> > To: "Miata Enthusiast's List" <(email redacted)>
> > Sent: Wednesday, June 19, 2002 11:42 AM
> > Subject: [Miata] Valentine1 Laser Falsing... (NMC)
> >
> >
> > > So I've had my Valentine1 for 6 months now and love it. It's saved my
> > butt
> > > countless times. I've noticed something of late that has started to
> cause
> > > frustration:
> > >
> > > Red LED lights. LED lighting makes so much more sense for a variety
of
> > > reasons, most importantly being that they require very little energy
and
> > > never burn out. I've seen them in traffic lights for some time now,
> which
> > > makes sense. Only, I've noticed, that if I'm close enough to a red
LED
> > > traffic light it will set off the laser detection in the valentine 1,
> > which
> > > is obnoxious. After getting used to this, the other day, I had an
even
> > > weirder thing happen. I came to a stop behind a car at a normal red
> > light,
> > > and the laser detection went off. After following this car for
awhile,
> I
> > > finally realized that its tail lights were LED's and were setting off
> the
> > > laser detection. I can only guess that LED emissions are somewhat
> sloppy
> > > and cross over into the infrared band as well as the visible band. If
> LED
> > > tail lights get much more common, this is going to be a REAL nuisance.
> > > Anyone else noticed this? Any ideas on what the future holds?
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Miata mailing list
> > > (email redacted)
> > > realbig.com/mailman/listinfo/miata
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Miata mailing list
> > (email redacted)
> > realbig.com/mailman/listinfo/miata
> >
>
> _______________________________________________
> Miata mailing list
> (email redacted)
> realbig.com/mailman/listinfo/miata

This read-only message was archived from a public mail list.
Mail From: miatalist (Per K. Nielsen)

> Didn't see it posted the V1 can be set to ignore the front or rear laser
> detector using the proper keyed in sequence on the front panel. I got an
SUV
> brake light attack the other day for the first time.
> I have only needed the laser detector once, so either the front or the
rear
> might find itself disabled in the near future.
>
> Was on valentineone.com/home.asp
>
> But I can't find it now, might require a call.
>

valentine1.com/Lab/MikesLabRpt3.asp

Per & Pixie