Miata List Archive

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Mail From: robert (Rob Argento)

John Freas wrote:
If you have noticed US drivers being more courteous in certain driving
situations it's most probably due to the fact that they are unaccustomed to
the idea of observing known rules and courtesies of the road, and so are not
frustrated when someone else does something rude or stupid in violation of
same.

Perhaps I should explain where I find American drivers more courteous. It
is seldom in driving situations at speeds but often at traffic lights when
someone else is trying to change lanes or trying to come in from a parking
area. you have more of a tendency to let others come in before you in queue.
That is seldom experienced in Europe. But in France and Italy we counter
that with the Toot-and-Drive technique which usually gains you access to
overly crowded traffic circles and merging traffic lanes. (when you get good
at it you do it with your eyes somewhat closed or at the very least without
turning you head at all.)

Never in Europe has anyone shouted out to me "NICE CAR!" It certainly has
happens many times here in the USA. But in Europe we ALWAYS wave to one
another (with same type of vehicle). I have not seen that over here.

In Europe we use blinking of high beam (even daytime) as a signal (I am
passing, please move). It sure works lot better than a horn at high speeds.
No one ever misinterprets the signal. Or after passing at night a quick
"thank you blink" corresponding to the daytime thank you of lifting your
hand after passing. I am really never very sure what blinking of lights over
here means. Could be anything from bad bulbs to police warning - but never
a thank you.

On the other hand you in the USA have more of a tendency to road rage - or
maybe it is mealy I who invoke what seems to me to be a number of middle
finger signals if added up over say a years time. People also seem to just
love riding my bumper - especially while standing at traffic lights easing
forward - forward - forward - in oh so small baby steps closer and closer.
Perhaps testing those automatic transmissions?

Big pick-up trucks seem to have a special propensity for wanting to drag
race turbo-charged Miatas - but I am not sure of this is good manners or
bad manners or just plain ignorance.

The road Rage in the USA seems to be inverse to that of say the Germans. In
the USA the crappier your car, the more road rage you seem to exhibit and
always to NICER cars. In Germany the propensity toward road rage is
definitely proportional to the PRICE of your vehicle and increases if the
receiver of the rage has a vehicle of lesser value. Though owners of high
end Mercedes are a bit more prone to this than their BMW counterparts.

As for revving engines and playing the Sport, here in the USA it SEEMS to be
somewhat inversely related to the age and shape of the vehicle doing the
said exercises. I recall just last week a fellow with his lady in a rusty
1983 Toyota something-or-other, radio blasting (probably to overpower the
hole in the muffler) beside me at a traffic light doing the Zoom-Zoom in
place just waiting for the light to change. Quite strange because he DID
have two cars in front of him. Or perhaps he was just trying to regain the
attention of the young lady in the seat next to him who was goggling the
Miata, probably dreaming of an intact exhaust system. Now, when the Wall
fell some years ago and the roads were filled with decrepit Trabants, NEVER
was I ever challenged to race by these wide-eyed drivers.

Not to forget the ding on my back fender gained last week at the country
club in Ft Lauderdale. (I sure hope I didn't indirectly cause damage that
new SUVs door.)

And BLESS YOU for your Right-Turn-on-Red rule. For once common sense ruled!
Just don't try it over there. Four-way-Stop intersections I would prefer
that you keep in the USA. Unfortunately that little Wonder is beginning to
be seen in Southern Sweden. Your "Speed humps" we call "Sleeping Police"
and the exits from Swedish Freeways are called "Ut-Fart" which somehow
causes most Americans to miss them.

So, as you see - different stroke for different folks. Alla s?tt ?r bra!
All ways are probably right - in one context or another.

/Robban
Titanium 2004 Mazdaspeed Miata (in Florida)
_____

From: John Freas [mailto:(email redacted)]
Sent: den 1 december 2005 22:42
To: Rob Argento; (email redacted); 'Miata mailing list'
Subject: Re: [Miata] Top Gear Videos - Ford Transit at 'The Ring'


Previously on The Ring, "Rob Argento" <(email redacted)> said...



> Actually, most people in Europe are quite attuned to driving the Autobahn
> and that would make this safer. The rules and driving culture of passing,
> being passed, and keeping OUT of the passing lanes are quite different
than
> those of the USA. I DO find American drivers, in many situations to be
more
> courteous and less agressive than Germnan, Italian, Frennch or even
Swedish
> drivers - but just in the area of passing, driving at high speeds (and
> always with one eye looking in the back mirrors) I find the culture better
> in Europ?. This is no criticism of drivers in the USA, but simply an
> observation by someone who lives on both sides of the Atlantic. Perhaps in
> the USA you don?t get enough practice driving at high speeds?


That's not the problem.

If you have noticed US drivers being more courteous in certain driving
situations it's most probably due to the fact that they are unaccustomed to
the idea of observing known rules and courtesies of the road, and so are not
frustrated when someone else does something rude or stupid in violation of
same. On the contrary, they expect it here as the norm. The 'culture' of
actually knowing and adhering to rules such as those regarding passing and
keeping out of the passing lane are familiar to most people in Europe
because they are required to actually learn the rules and demonstrate their
knowledge and skill during the driving test before being granted a license
to drive. These things are not required in the USA and are probably alien
to most of our drivers.

I'm glad you found some of us courteous. I think if we had 1/10th the
qualifications of European drivers we too would become quickly frustrated at
those who choose to ignore the rules and courtesies that make the roads
safer and easier to drive for everyone. Fortunately few of us know what
we're missing.

#7690 <miata.cardomain.com/memberpage/124040>
Columbus, IN <columbus.in.us/>
- Standard Disclaimer <john.freas.home.comcast.net/disclaimer.html>
Applies -
Team LS1,2,SP, the Gap...
I love my Miata <geocities.com/clash_girl/Spike_Scrapbook.html>
girl and my brand spankin' new Miata Baby
<john.freas.home.comcast.net/Suntan.jpg> !
"I have no idea what those dimple things on the windshield frame are for."
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Mail From: the.jack (the.jack)

Rob, I can't agree with that last statement, "all ways are
probably right in - in one context or another". I'd say there's a
strong 33% of the driving population (a conservative number) that -
while perhaps socially and mentally capable - are utter effing vehicular
morons.
As a result, between bad driving, slow driving and fast driving
all on the same road, there's bound to be road rage. What's worse is
that Americans have this inbred sense of "entitlement," especially when
it comes to cars (applies to property in general, of course).
That is to say we have a car not because we earned a
responsibility with which comes freedom and power (and fun in a Miata's
case) but is predominantly a responsibility, but because all Americans
are entitled a nice car (of course with the cars we make, you'd wonder
where THAT belief came in).
Anyway, it's a matter of perspective and while I don't know
anything about the European driver, that sense of entitlement definitely
tinges (stains if you will) most of America's unappreciated blessings -
cars are just an easily witnessed example.
So I think that is sort of at root in the driving mentality
here; all the problems of driving come from that... Somehow we're
entitled and that must also mean we're entitled because we're all
excellent drivers. We CAN'T all be excellent drivers and yet, as
someone else pointed out earlier, most driviers believe they are better
than average drivers... Well that's an impossibility we can't ALL be
better than average! Oh well...
But I digress on a topic that's already been digressed!
I hope you don't hate it here after that, Rob ;)

Chris C.
===================================
99 Mazda Miata 5-sp
97 Dodge Ramwagon 3.9 slush-o-matic
97 Saab 900 Talladega 5-sp
91 XJ 4.0HO 30s

-----Original Message-----
From: (email redacted) [mailto:(email redacted)] On
Behalf Of Rob Argento
Sent: Friday, December 02, 2005 23.25
To: 'John Freas'; (email redacted); 'Miata mailing list'
Subject: [Miata] (NMC) Courtesy - and NonSuch USA and Europe

John Freas wrote:
If you have noticed US drivers being more courteous in certain driving
situations it's most probably due to the fact that they are unaccustomed
to the idea of observing known rules and courtesies of the road, and so
are not frustrated when someone else does something rude or stupid in
violation of same.

Perhaps I should explain where I find American drivers more courteous.
It is seldom in driving situations at speeds but often at traffic lights
when someone else is trying to change lanes or trying to come in from a
parking area. you have more of a tendency to let others come in before
you in queue. That is seldom experienced in Europe. But in France and
Italy we counter that with the Toot-and-Drive technique which usually
gains you access to overly crowded traffic circles and merging traffic
lanes. (when you get good at it you do it with your eyes somewhat closed
or at the very least without turning you head at all.)

Never in Europe has anyone shouted out to me "NICE CAR!" It certainly
has happens many times here in the USA. But in Europe we ALWAYS wave to
one another (with same type of vehicle). I have not seen that over
here.

In Europe we use blinking of high beam (even daytime) as a signal (I am
passing, please move). It sure works lot better than a horn at high
speeds. No one ever misinterprets the signal. Or after passing at
night a quick "thank you blink" corresponding to the daytime thank you
of lifting your hand after passing. I am really never very sure what
blinking of lights over here means. Could be anything from bad bulbs to
police warning - but never a thank you.

On the other hand you in the USA have more of a tendency to road rage -
or maybe it is mealy I who invoke what seems to me to be a number of
middle finger signals if added up over say a years time. People also
seem to just love riding my bumper - especially while standing at
traffic lights easing forward - forward - forward - in oh so small baby
steps closer and closer. Perhaps testing those automatic transmissions?


Big pick-up trucks seem to have a special propensity for wanting to drag
race turbo-charged Miatas - but I am not sure of this is good manners
or bad manners or just plain ignorance.

The road Rage in the USA seems to be inverse to that of say the Germans.
In the USA the crappier your car, the more road rage you seem to exhibit
and always to NICER cars. In Germany the propensity toward road rage is
definitely proportional to the PRICE of your vehicle and increases if
the receiver of the rage has a vehicle of lesser value. Though owners of
high end Mercedes are a bit more prone to this than their BMW
counterparts.

As for revving engines and playing the Sport, here in the USA it SEEMS
to be somewhat inversely related to the age and shape of the vehicle
doing the said exercises. I recall just last week a fellow with his
lady in a rusty 1983 Toyota something-or-other, radio blasting
(probably to overpower the hole in the muffler) beside me at a traffic
light doing the Zoom-Zoom in place just waiting for the light to change.
Quite strange because he DID have two cars in front of him. Or perhaps
he was just trying to regain the attention of the young lady in the seat
next to him who was goggling the Miata, probably dreaming of an intact
exhaust system. Now, when the Wall fell some years ago and the roads
were filled with decrepit Trabants, NEVER was I ever challenged to race
by these wide-eyed drivers.

Not to forget the ding on my back fender gained last week at the country
club in Ft Lauderdale. (I sure hope I didn't indirectly cause damage
that new SUVs door.)

And BLESS YOU for your Right-Turn-on-Red rule. For once common sense
ruled! Just don't try it over there. Four-way-Stop intersections I
would prefer that you keep in the USA. Unfortunately that little Wonder
is beginning to be seen in Southern Sweden. Your "Speed humps" we call
"Sleeping Police" and the exits from Swedish Freeways are called
"Ut-Fart" which somehow causes most Americans to miss them.

So, as you see - different stroke for different folks. Alla s?tt ?r
bra! All ways are probably right - in one context or another.

/Robban
Titanium 2004 Mazdaspeed Miata (in Florida)

This read-only message was archived from a public mail list.
Mail From: Subhunter (Hank)

Depending on the stress level and where you choose to initiate it, the 'Toot and Drive' approach will more likely get you a 9mm round through the door or a punch in the snout in the States!

Personally I usually don't have a problem either letting somebody in line ahead of me or getting someone to offer me a spot if show a bit of courtesy and implying a request via turn signal and maybe a pleading look over a shoulder while not continuing to edge over into the lane. A backward wave once the merge is completed also helps calm the waters. It's the SOB's that continue to edge over without even a cursory glance to seek permission that stir my competitive juices. Jokers that have an air of ownership about them that make it seem it's your responsibility indeed obligation to stop and let them go ahead of you and lets not forget those that rush past the warnings in the closed off lane trying to gain that last few feet before coming to the bitter end and then attempting to merge up ahead simply to gain that last few feet.

Like a fart in church, some things just aren't done!


Hank & the Scandalously Striped Silver '99
Curmudgeon Racing
Deep in the Heart of Dragon Country
Murphy, Nawth Carolina


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Mail From: jerry.houston (Jerry Houston)

Hank wrote:
>
> ... and lets not forget those that rush past the warnings
> in the closed off lane trying to gain that last few feet before
> coming to the bitter end and then attempting to merge up ahead simply
> to gain that last few feet.
>
> Like a fart in church, some things just aren't done!

Lighten up, Hank. They're the ones doing it right! People who merge early
at some undefined spot of their own choosing become pissed off when someone
else chooses to merge at a later spot (as you've indicated that you do).
The only REAL place to merge is the place where the two lanes actually
become one - what you call "the bitter end." How 'bout the guy who changed
lanes 50 feet before you decided to, and figures that YOU'RE an unfair jerk
for passing him? What makes him more righteous than you?

Nervous drivers, eager to make sure that THEY won't get left in a lane that
disappears, tend to switch lanes early, unnecessarily slowing down folks in
that new lane. A merge (as opposed to a "yield right of way") is supposed
to mean "one of us ... one of them ... one of us .. one of them ..." In
Germany, it's called a "zipper," which pretty well describes it. The only
way that can work is if everyone (from both lanes) merges where they become
one lane. Not 234 feet back, or 178 feet back, or wherever else they begin
to get worried about finding an opening.

Doing that unfairly slows down one lane and speeds up the other. Then
drivers like you complain about the ones who choose to drive in the lane
that YOU'VE made faster! If a merge is done correctly - at the place where
the two lanes become one - both lanes move at the same speed, and everyone
is treated fairly. But only if the merge occurs there, not at some
arbitrary series of places back up the road a ways.

This sort of thing happens often at intersections, where there are buffer
lanes to get more cars through a turn on one change of the light. A single
lane is widened to two turn lanes just before the intersection, so more cars
can wait there for the light to change, then the two return to one lane
after the turn. Both lanes go to the same place, and drivers in both lanes
have an equal right to be there, but often folks in the inside lane feel
that only THEY have any right to be there, and that folks in the outside
lane are somehow cheating. When they eventually do merge and become one
again, so often drivers in the "correct" lane will drive bumper-to-bumper to
prevent anyone's attempting to merge with them.

What you do causes road rage, and it's unfortunate that is IS done, way too
often.

This read-only message was archived from a public mail list.
Mail From: Larry (Larry Alster)

I agree 100% with Jerry on this and the cops will tell you that is what they
prefer for drivers to do.

The only time I have issues with this is when the drivers doing the merging
are doing it by driving down the shoulder to get in front because they are
better than the people waiting in line. The other case is when the people
going down the lane to merge go past the point they should be merging and
driving over the road stripes in the effort to get in front of 3 or 4 more
cars.


Larry

White Knight 1991 Crystal White #99 CSP
Silver Bullet 1992 Silverstone #17 EM FM I+ Turbo
Honey B 1992 Sunburst Yellow J.R. M45
Whooosh 2004 Titanium MazdaSpeed MX5

LowCountry Miata lowcountrymiataclub.net
Masters Miata
RAGS 074

----- Original Message -----
From: "Jerry Houston" <(email redacted)>
To: "Hank" <(email redacted)>; "'Miata mailing list'"
<(email redacted)>
Sent: Saturday, December 03, 2005 1:20 PM
Subject: Re: [Miata] (NMC) Courtesy - and NonSuch USA and Europe


> Hank wrote:
>>
>> ... and lets not forget those that rush past the warnings
>> in the closed off lane trying to gain that last few feet before
>> coming to the bitter end and then attempting to merge up ahead simply
>> to gain that last few feet.
>>
>> Like a fart in church, some things just aren't done!
>
> Lighten up, Hank. They're the ones doing it right! People who merge
> early at some undefined spot of their own choosing become pissed off when
> someone else chooses to merge at a later spot (as you've indicated that
> you do). The only REAL place to merge is the place where the two lanes
> actually become one - what you call "the bitter end." How 'bout the guy
> who changed lanes 50 feet before you decided to, and figures that YOU'RE
> an unfair jerk for passing him? What makes him more righteous than you?
>
> Nervous drivers, eager to make sure that THEY won't get left in a lane
> that disappears, tend to switch lanes early, unnecessarily slowing down
> folks in that new lane. A merge (as opposed to a "yield right of way") is
> supposed to mean "one of us ... one of them ... one of us .. one of them
> ..." In Germany, it's called a "zipper," which pretty well describes it.
> The only way that can work is if everyone (from both lanes) merges where
> they become one lane. Not 234 feet back, or 178 feet back, or wherever
> else they begin to get worried about finding an opening.
>
> Doing that unfairly slows down one lane and speeds up the other. Then
> drivers like you complain about the ones who choose to drive in the lane
> that YOU'VE made faster! If a merge is done correctly - at the place
> where the two lanes become one - both lanes move at the same speed, and
> everyone is treated fairly. But only if the merge occurs there, not at
> some arbitrary series of places back up the road a ways.
>
> This sort of thing happens often at intersections, where there are buffer
> lanes to get more cars through a turn on one change of the light. A
> single lane is widened to two turn lanes just before the intersection, so
> more cars can wait there for the light to change, then the two return to
> one lane after the turn. Both lanes go to the same place, and drivers in
> both lanes have an equal right to be there, but often folks in the inside
> lane feel that only THEY have any right to be there, and that folks in the
> outside lane are somehow cheating. When they eventually do merge and
> become one again, so often drivers in the "correct" lane will drive
> bumper-to-bumper to prevent anyone's attempting to merge with them.
>
> What you do causes road rage, and it's unfortunate that is IS done, way
> too often.
> _______________________________________________
> Miata mailing list
> (email redacted)
> ftl.realbig.com/mailman/listinfo/miata
>

This read-only message was archived from a public mail list.
Mail From: the.jack (the.jack)

Oh yeah, he's perfectly right. Go to any major theme park and
they - smartly - don't denote a "prefered" lane, and they have traffic
aids [personnel] to "zipper" people in and it moves FAST! BUT... Good
luck finding a strong example of that in a real life merge.
If I'm trying to come over in a merge, I don't get in front of
someone who's just let someone else in (unless they stop, which does
happen) and if I'm in the "preferred" lane I let one vehicle in as the
merge is closing, and I most certainly don't like the shoulder riders
over :/ Larry you put a perfect description on that behavior.
I remember that was one of the rules of traffic my mother (who
is a good driver unlike my dad) stressed as being one of the most useful
(because merges are a pain) and one of the least used/understood. I
think if everyone experienced a good merge they'd be less likely to
either fight their way in past the merge or cut over early, then we'd be
all set :)
Dropped off a set of wheels/tires I sold on eBay in CT (live in
NY) and on a lane merge a BMW M3 zipped up at 25+ what I was doing
(which was already 10 over - 65 in a 55 like most others) and ripped
along the shoulder to squeeze in. There was PLENTY of room behind me,
traffic wasn't that busy. If I didn't have 250 lbs of junk in the back
(of my wife's car no less) I would have let him ride the rumble strip a
bit, but I didn't feel like dying today. I did wave the New York State
Bird, though :}

Chris C.
===================================
99 Mazda Miata 5-sp
97 Dodge Ramwagon 3.9 slush-o-matic
97 Saab 900 Talladega 5-sp
91 XJ 4.0HO 30s

> -----Original Message-----
> From: (email redacted)
> [mailto:(email redacted)] On Behalf Of Larry Alster
> Sent: Saturday, December 03, 2005 13.29
> To: Jerry Houston; Hank; 'Miata mailing list'
> Subject: Re: [Miata] (NMC) Courtesy - and NonSuch USA and Europe
>
> I agree 100% with Jerry on this and the cops will tell you that is
what they
> prefer for drivers to do.
>
> The only time I have issues with this is when the drivers doing the
merging
> are doing it by driving down the shoulder to get in front because they
are
> better than the people waiting in line. The other case is when the
people
> going down the lane to merge go past the point they should be merging
and
> driving over the road stripes in the effort to get in front of 3 or 4
more
> cars.
>
> Larry
>
> White Knight 1991 Crystal White #99 CSP
> Silver Bullet 1992 Silverstone #17 EM FM I+ Turbo
> Honey B 1992 Sunburst Yellow J.R. M45
> Whooosh 2004 Titanium MazdaSpeed MX5
>
> LowCountry Miata lowcountrymiataclub.net
> Masters Miata
> RAGS 074

This read-only message was archived from a public mail list.
Mail From: rhengen (Bob Hengen)

I wouldn't say they're the ones doing it right. If everyone started to merge
as soon as possible, then there would be no bottleneck -and slowdown- at the
actual merge.
In a perfect world you would have two equal length lanes merging every other
car. Then what you say would work, but it ain't gonna happen.
Ever drive in Japan? They all merge early and going to the front of the
other lane to squeeze in is a HUGE no-no.
Bob H.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Jerry Houston" <(email redacted)>
To: "Hank" <(email redacted)>; "'Miata mailing list'"
<(email redacted)>
Sent: Saturday, December 03, 2005 1:20 PM
Subject: Re: [Miata] (NMC) Courtesy - and NonSuch USA and Europe


snip......
> Lighten up, Hank. They're the ones doing it right! People who merge
> early at some undefined spot of their own choosing become pissed off when
> someone else chooses to merge at a later spot (as you've indicated that
> you do). The only REAL place to merge is the place where the two lanes
> actually become one - what you call "the bitter end." How 'bout the guy
> who changed lanes 50 feet before you decided to, and figures that YOU'RE
> an unfair jerk for passing him? What makes him more righteous than you?
>
> Nervous drivers, eager to make sure that THEY won't get left in a lane
> that disappears, tend to switch lanes early, unnecessarily slowing down
> folks in that new lane. A merge (as opposed to a "yield right of way") is
> supposed to mean "one of us ... one of them ... one of us .. one of them
> ..." In Germany, it's called a "zipper," which pretty well describes it.
> The only way that can work is if everyone (from both lanes) merges where
> they become one lane. Not 234 feet back, or 178 feet back, or wherever
> else they begin to get worried about finding an opening.
>
> Doing that unfairly slows down one lane and speeds up the other. Then
> drivers like you complain about the ones who choose to drive in the lane
> that YOU'VE made faster! If a merge is done correctly - at the place
> where the two lanes become one - both lanes move at the same speed, and
> everyone is treated fairly. But only if the merge occurs there, not at
> some arbitrary series of places back up the road a ways.
>
> This sort of thing happens often at intersections, where there are buffer
> lanes to get more cars through a turn on one change of the light. A
> single lane is widened to two turn lanes just before the intersection, so
> more cars can wait there for the light to change, then the two return to
> one lane after the turn. Both lanes go to the same place, and drivers in
> both lanes have an equal right to be there, but often folks in the inside
> lane feel that only THEY have any right to be there, and that folks in the
> outside lane are somehow cheating. When they eventually do merge and
> become one again, so often drivers in the "correct" lane will drive
> bumper-to-bumper to prevent anyone's attempting to merge with them.
>
> What you do causes road rage, and it's unfortunate that is IS done, way
> too often.
> _______________________________________________
> Miata mailing list
> (email redacted)
> ftl.realbig.com/mailman/listinfo/miata

This read-only message was archived from a public mail list.
Mail From: tbeavan1 (Terry Beavan)

Funny you mention that, Hank--I recently gave my name/address/phone to
the police, as a witness to a guy getting punched out while at the wheel
of his car, while stopped at a light--the guy behind him claimed the
other guy had cut him off. That may or may not be, I didn't see that
part of the inicdent--all I saw was one guy kicking another guy's car,
and then punchhing him in his face so bad that he lost a tooth or two,
without even exiting his own car. It looked to get even uglier, solely
on the part of the psycho doing the punching of the other guy, except
for the number of witnesses around who for once weren't going to stand
idly by and let him get away with it--and the fact that the guy who did
the punching proceeded to follow the other guy who was punched right
into a parking lot--where a few policeman happened to be parked at the
time....
Terry

Hank wrote:

> Depending on the stress level and where you choose to initiate it, the
> 'Toot and Drive' approach will more likely get you a 9mm round through
> the door or a punch in the snout in the States!

This read-only message was archived from a public mail list.
Mail From: Subhunter (Hank)

I'd never condone that kind of action but I can't say I've never thought of
it when cut off by some inconsiderate a**hole with his ear stuck in a cell
and his pea sized brain otherwise occupied or simply not equipped to have a
clue. I'm sure I'm not the only one that's had such 'dark' thoughts.

Hank & the Scandalously Striped Silver '99
Curmudgeon Racing
Deep in the Heart of Dragon Country
Murphy, Nawth Carolina


----- Original Message -----
From: "Terry Beavan" <(email redacted)>
To: "Hank" <(email redacted)>; <(email redacted)>
Sent: Saturday, December 03, 2005 3:33 PM
Subject: Re: [Miata] (NMC) Courtesy - and NonSuch USA and Europe


> Funny you mention that, Hank--I recently gave my name/address/phone to the
> police, as a witness to a guy getting punched out while at the wheel of
> his car, while stopped at a light--

This read-only message was archived from a public mail list.
Mail From: the.jack (the.jack)

Scary! I'm glad to hear the witnesses were active and didn't
ignore the situation. Having the cops there "randomly" certainly helps.
If you're going to fight someone, at least give them a fighting chance
outside of the car. That's just cowardly, but somehow I don't think the
aggressor was worried about fighting fair :/

Chris C.
===================================
99 Mazda Miata 5-sp
97 Dodge Ramwagon 3.9 slush-o-matic
97 Saab 900 Talladega 5-sp
91 XJ 4.0HO 30s

> -----Original Message-----
> From: (email redacted)
> [mailto:(email redacted)] On Behalf Of Terry Beavan
> Sent: Saturday, December 03, 2005 15.33
> To: Hank; (email redacted)
> Subject: Re: [Miata] (NMC) Courtesy - and NonSuch USA and Europe
>
>
> Funny you mention that, Hank--I recently gave my name/address/phone to

> the police, as a witness to a guy getting punched out while at the
wheel
> of his car, while stopped at a light--the guy behind him claimed the
> other guy had cut him off. That may or may not be, I didn't see that
> part of the inicdent--all I saw was one guy kicking another guy's car,

> and then punchhing him in his face so bad that he lost a tooth or two,

> without even exiting his own car. It looked to get even uglier,
solely
> on the part of the psycho doing the punching of the other guy, except
> for the number of witnesses around who for once weren't going to stand

> idly by and let him get away with it--and the fact that the guy who
did
> the punching proceeded to follow the other guy who was punched right
> into a parking lot--where a few policeman happened to be parked at the

> time....
> Terry

This read-only message was archived from a public mail list.
Mail From: the.jack (the.jack)

There's a huge difference in a quick mental fantasy and acting
out on such thoughts. A conscience helps :) Rational thought and
understanding of consequences work too, even devoid of morals. Is it
really worth escalating to fists over someone being either ignorant or
deliberately inconsiderate? I just make a silent wish for an off-duty
coming off a long shift next time they cut someone off or a trooper at
the next U-turn segment on a highway when they're doing 20 over :)

Chris C.
===================================
99 Mazda Miata 5-sp
97 Dodge Ramwagon 3.9 slush-o-matic
97 Saab 900 Talladega 5-sp
91 XJ 4.0HO 30s

> -----Original Message-----
> From: (email redacted)
> [mailto:(email redacted)] On Behalf Of Hank
> Sent: Saturday, December 03, 2005 17.05
> To: Terry Beavan; Miata List
> Subject: Re: [Miata] (NMC) Courtesy - and NonSuch USA and Europe
>
> I'd never condone that kind of action but I can't say I've
> never thought of it when cut off by some inconsiderate
> a**hole with his ear stuck in a cell and his pea sized brain
> otherwise occupied or simply not equipped to have a clue.
> I'm sure I'm not the only one that's had such 'dark' thoughts.
>
> Hank & the Scandalously Striped Silver '99
> Curmudgeon Racing
> Deep in the Heart of Dragon Country
> Murphy, Nawth Carolina

This read-only message was archived from a public mail list.
Mail From: tbeavan1 (Terry Beavan)

Yeah, its funny to joke about "putting him into the wall", not so funny
to actually do it. We had a situation here where a guy was upset that
the woman in the minivan in front of him was driving too slow in the
left lane--at least that was his excuse to the police when he gave
himself up--see, he got in front of her and then slammed on his brakes.
Ok, that's something I'm sure a lot of us have probably at least
thought about on occasion (guilty as charged) or even done once or
twice, but its not so intelligent, especially considering the person
you're doing it to is obviously a dimbulb to begin with, and probably
isn't paying attention to much of anything around them. Well, in this
case the woman panicked, lost control and drove off the road--wrecked,
and she died. Might have had kids in the van with her, too, I don't
remember.
Funny thing though, after this incident I swear that in this messed up
city, I've seen MORE tailgating and otherwise idiotic behavior, not
less. People don't learn....
Terry :(

the.jack wrote:
> There's a huge difference in a quick mental fantasy and acting
> out on such thoughts. A conscience helps :) Rational thought and
> understanding of consequences work too, even devoid of morals. Is it
> really worth escalating to fists over someone being either ignorant or
> deliberately inconsiderate? I just make a silent wish for an off-duty
> coming off a long shift next time they cut someone off or a trooper at
> the next U-turn segment on a highway when they're doing 20 over :)
>
> Chris C.
> ===================================
> 99 Mazda Miata 5-sp
> 97 Dodge Ramwagon 3.9 slush-o-matic
> 97 Saab 900 Talladega 5-sp
> 91 XJ 4.0HO 30s
>
>
>>-----Original Message-----
>>From: (email redacted)
>>[mailto:(email redacted)] On Behalf Of Hank
>>Sent: Saturday, December 03, 2005 17.05
>>To: Terry Beavan; Miata List
>>Subject: Re: [Miata] (NMC) Courtesy - and NonSuch USA and Europe
>>
>>I'd never condone that kind of action but I can't say I've
>>never thought of it when cut off by some inconsiderate
>>a**hole with his ear stuck in a cell and his pea sized brain
>>otherwise occupied or simply not equipped to have a clue.
>>I'm sure I'm not the only one that's had such 'dark' thoughts.
>>
>>Hank & the Scandalously Striped Silver '99
>>Curmudgeon Racing
>>Deep in the Heart of Dragon Country
>>Murphy, Nawth Carolina
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Miata mailing list
> (email redacted)
> ftl.realbig.com/mailman/listinfo/miata
>

This read-only message was archived from a public mail list.
Mail From: john.freas (John Freas)

Previously on Courtesy, Rob Argento said...
Perhaps I should explain where I find American drivers more courteous. It is seldom in driving situations at speeds but often at traffic lights when someone else is trying to change lanes or trying to come in from a parking area. you have more of a tendency to let others come in before you in queue. That is seldom experienced in Europe. But in France and Italy we counter that with the Toot-and-Drive technique which usually gains you access to overly crowded traffic circles and merging traffic lanes. (when you get good at it you do it with your eyes somewhat closed or at the very least without turning you head at all.)
It depends on where you are, but yes we do often give others a break. More so in suburban areas I'd wager, and less so in larger metropolitan areas. If you're driving on Manhattan you'll find that you have to be a lot more assertive to get where you need to go, or even to keep from being shoved off the street. There's a whole style of driving there that combines smart thinking, awareness and assertiveness. It can be very stressful, but it's also a lot like what you describe above.
Never in Europe has anyone shouted out to me "NICE CAR!" It certainly has happens many times here in the USA. But in Europe we ALWAYS wave to one another (with same type of vehicle). I have not seen that over here.
I've been waved at, and had waves returned, but it's hit & miss. Less of a common thing here, probably because most of us drive boring cars that don't inspire any feeling of community.
In Europe we use blinking of high beam (even daytime) as a signal (I am passing, please move). It sure works lot better than a horn at high speeds. No one ever misinterprets the signal. Or after passing at night a quick "thank you blink" corresponding to the daytime thank you of lifting your hand after passing. I am really never very sure what blinking of lights over here means. Could be anything from bad bulbs to police warning - but never a thank you.

This gets back to the fact that in the USA we aren't expected to know any of the rules of the road, let alone courtesies, in order to hold a driver's license. Add to that the fact that if it was correctly understood, half the people in this country would interpret a passing flash as a challange. Truck drivers use the light-flash method of saying thank you, some car drivers understand it but seldom use it themselves. Generally I believe it is thought that the overtaken car had nothing to do with being passed (except for possibly being an obstruction), and so no thanks is required.
On the other hand you in the USA have more of a tendency to road rage - or maybe it is mealy I who invoke what seems to me to be a number of middle finger signals if added up over say a years time. People also seem to just love riding my bumper - especially while standing at traffic lights easing forward - forward - forward - in oh so small baby steps closer and closer. Perhaps testing those automatic transmissions?
As to the one-finger salute, my guess is that when you mix driving styles from different parts of the world folks are bound to be unhappy about it. I have no idea how you drive, so I can't say what the reason is for you, it might just be a normal greeting where you live ;)

As to people riding your bumper, that's typical lousy American driving. The creeping at the stop lights is the same thing. Apparently people don't know how to bring their vehicles to a stop at a specific point in space so they use the golf strategy of laying up and then chipping on, or in this case getting somewhere close and then creeping up to close the gap. I refuse to play that game and so there will often be an increasingly large opening between my car and the one in front of me as the line compresses. Sorry, I don't feel like burning up my clutch .
Big pick-up trucks seem to have a special propensity for wanting to drag race turbo-charged Miatas - but I am not sure of this is good manners or bad manners or just plain ignorance.

I think it's safe to say that the majority of what you experience on the roads of the USA is a combination of bad manners and ignorance.
The road Rage in the USA seems to be inverse to that of say the Germans. In the USA the crappier your car, the more road rage you seem to exhibit and always to NICER cars. In Germany the propensity toward road rage is definitely proportional to the PRICE of your vehicle and increases if the receiver of the rage has a vehicle of lesser value. Though owners of high end Mercedes are a bit more prone to this than their BMW counterparts.
Yes, here we are taught to resent those who have success and have made something of their lives. I suppose in Germany they are taught to abuse those who haven't risen to a certain level of affluence.

Happy driving :)

-John
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
John Freas
Red '90 Base-ish #7690
Columbus, IN
- Standard Disclaimer Applies -
Team LS1,2, SP, the Gap...
I love my Miata girl and my brand spankin' new Miata Baby!
"I have no idea what those dimple things on the windshield frame are for."
-------------- next part --------------
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Mail From: pethier ((email redacted))

>Truck drivers use the light-flash method of
>saying thank you, some car drivers understand it but seldom
>use it themselves.

Historically, the on-off-on flash from a truck driver after
you pass is to tell you that you are far enough ahead to
pull in. The flash from you says thanks. Most truckers
will repspond in kind if you initiate this conversation. So
don't flash if the truck is not a comfortable distance ahead
yet.

In a similar conversation with a trucker, I used an
on-off-on flash while towing my Europa in the rain to tell a
trucker entering an on-ramp that I saw him and was planning
on letting him in. (Moving over was not an option, as the
section of freeway I was on was limited to one lane for
ongoing construction.) After he was safely on the road, he
gave me the same as a thanks.

I'm a firm believer of giving truckers lots of room. If
he's a good one he deserves the courtesy and if he's a bad
one, I don't want to be involved in the ensuing carnage.



Phil Ethier West Side Saint Paul Minnesota USA
1962 TR4 CT2846L, 1992 Saturn SL2, 1993 Suburban, 1994 Miata
C package
(email redacted)
forum.mnautox.com/forums/
<lotuseuropa.org/gallery/view_album.php?set_albumName=philethier>
flickr.com/photos/pethier

This read-only message was archived from a public mail list.
Mail From: the.jack (the.jack)

Well said! I use The Flash for the same purpose with trucks, but
also with letting people in (say left-turners waiting for a space, meanwhile
it's a redlight for me) from various directions; again this was something my
mother taught me that I honestly don't remember hearing from the
12-hour-course-guy or reading in the manual - that doesn't mean it's
definitely not in there, of course.

Chris C.
===================================
99 Mazda Miata 5-sp
97 Dodge Ramwagon 3.9 slush-o-matic
97 Saab 900 Talladega 5-sp
91 XJ 4.0HO 30s

> -----Original Message-----
> From: (email redacted)
> [mailto:(email redacted)] On Behalf Of (email redacted)
> Sent: Tuesday, December 06, 2005 13.47
> To: John Freas; Rob Argento; (email redacted); 'Miata
> mailing list'
> Subject: Re: [Miata] (NMC) Courtesy - and NonSuch USA and Europe
>
> >Truck drivers use the light-flash method of
> >saying thank you, some car drivers understand it but seldom use it
> >themselves.
>
> Historically, the on-off-on flash from a truck driver after
> you pass is to tell you that you are far enough ahead to
> pull in. The flash from you says thanks. Most truckers
> will repspond in kind if you initiate this conversation. So
> don't flash if the truck is not a comfortable distance ahead yet.
>
> In a similar conversation with a trucker, I used an
> on-off-on flash while towing my Europa in the rain to tell a
> trucker entering an on-ramp that I saw him and was planning
> on letting him in. (Moving over was not an option, as the
> section of freeway I was on was limited to one lane for
> ongoing construction.) After he was safely on the road, he
> gave me the same as a thanks.
>
> I'm a firm believer of giving truckers lots of room. If
> he's a good one he deserves the courtesy and if he's a bad
> one, I don't want to be involved in the ensuing carnage.
>
> Phil Ethier West Side Saint Paul Minnesota USA
> 1962 TR4 CT2846L, 1992 Saturn SL2, 1993 Suburban, 1994 Miata
> C package
> (email redacted)
> forum.mnautox.com/forums/
>
<lotuseuropa.org/gallery/view_album.php?set_albumName=philethier>
> flickr.com/photos/pethier

This read-only message was archived from a public mail list.
Mail From: kec (Ken C)

If I am waiting in a line of traffic, I will leave roomfor a left turner,
but will not indicate to them if its ok to come on. Should you do this and
someone coming up the outside lane hits them, they may want to involve you
in the settlement, saying you said it was clear to turn.

I also us the flash system with truckers, especially in the Miata, don't
want to mess up with a big rig.

Ken Cloud
----- Original Message -----
From: "the.jack" <(email redacted)>
To: "'Miata List'" <(email redacted)>
Sent: 06 December, 2005 1:55 PM
Subject: RE: [Miata] (NMC) Courtesy - and NonSuch USA and Europe


> Well said! I use The Flash for the same purpose with trucks, but
> also with letting people in (say left-turners waiting for a space,
> meanwhile
> it's a redlight for me) from various directions; again this was something
> my
> mother taught me that I honestly don't remember hearing from the
> 12-hour-course-guy or reading in the manual - that doesn't mean it's
> definitely not in there, of course.
>
> Chris C.
> ===================================
> 99 Mazda Miata 5-sp
> 97 Dodge Ramwagon 3.9 slush-o-matic
> 97 Saab 900 Talladega 5-sp
> 91 XJ 4.0HO 30s
>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: (email redacted)
>> [mailto:(email redacted)] On Behalf Of (email redacted)
>> Sent: Tuesday, December 06, 2005 13.47
>> To: John Freas; Rob Argento; (email redacted); 'Miata
>> mailing list'
>> Subject: Re: [Miata] (NMC) Courtesy - and NonSuch USA and Europe
>>
>> >Truck drivers use the light-flash method of
>> >saying thank you, some car drivers understand it but seldom use it
>> >themselves.
>>
>> Historically, the on-off-on flash from a truck driver after
>> you pass is to tell you that you are far enough ahead to
>> pull in. The flash from you says thanks. Most truckers
>> will repspond in kind if you initiate this conversation. So
>> don't flash if the truck is not a comfortable distance ahead yet.
>>
>> In a similar conversation with a trucker, I used an
>> on-off-on flash while towing my Europa in the rain to tell a
>> trucker entering an on-ramp that I saw him and was planning
>> on letting him in. (Moving over was not an option, as the
>> section of freeway I was on was limited to one lane for
>> ongoing construction.) After he was safely on the road, he
>> gave me the same as a thanks.
>>
>> I'm a firm believer of giving truckers lots of room. If
>> he's a good one he deserves the courtesy and if he's a bad
>> one, I don't want to be involved in the ensuing carnage.
>>
>> Phil Ethier West Side Saint Paul Minnesota USA
>> 1962 TR4 CT2846L, 1992 Saturn SL2, 1993 Suburban, 1994 Miata
>> C package
>> (email redacted)
>> forum.mnautox.com/forums/
>>
> <lotuseuropa.org/gallery/view_album.php?set_albumName=philethier>
>> flickr.com/photos/pethier
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Miata mailing list
> (email redacted)
> ftl.realbig.com/mailman/listinfo/miata
>

This read-only message was archived from a public mail list.
Mail From: totdots (Jamie Ruderman)

It's too bad that driver training in the US (although I can only really
speak for California) is so poor. I can't imagine anyone more apathetic
than the DMV. Realistically, I doubt that there will be any stricter
driving requirements enforced in my lifetime, but It would be nice if
they would teach better road manners in the driver's ed classes. Here
if you get a ticket you can go to traffic school to get it taken off
your record - so I've been to my fair share of traffic schools (and
then some... ;) ) but they never would tell you the correct way to
merge, or what the left lane is for. I actually was a witness to the
majority of the class agreeing that there was no reason to move out of
the left lane if you were going the speed limit. It was all about the
"Law" no credit given to common sense.

...stupid people should only get 1/2 a vote... :P ;)

Jamie.

--- John Freas <(email redacted)> wrote:

> Previously on Courtesy, Rob Argento said...
> Perhaps I should explain where I find American drivers more
> courteous. It is seldom in driving situations at speeds but often
> at traffic lights when someone else is trying to change lanes or
> trying to come in from a parking area. you have more of a tendency to
> let others come in before you in queue. That is seldom experienced
> in Europe. But in France and Italy we counter that with the
> Toot-and-Drive technique which usually gains you access to overly
> crowded traffic circles and merging traffic lanes. (when you get good
> at it you do it with your eyes somewhat closed or at the very least
> without turning you head at all.)
> It depends on where you are, but yes we do often give others a break.
> More so in suburban areas I'd wager, and less so in larger
> metropolitan areas. If you're driving on Manhattan you'll find that
> you have to be a lot more assertive to get where you need to go, or
> even to keep from being shoved off the street. There's a whole style
> of driving there that combines smart thinking, awareness and
> assertiveness. It can be very stressful, but it's also a lot like
> what you describe above.
> Never in Europe has anyone shouted out to me "NICE CAR!" It
> certainly has happens many times here in the USA. But in Europe we
> ALWAYS wave to one another (with same type of vehicle). I have not
> seen that over here.
> I've been waved at, and had waves returned, but it's hit & miss.
> Less of a common thing here, probably because most of us drive boring
> cars that don't inspire any feeling of community.
> In Europe we use blinking of high beam (even daytime) as a signal
> (I am passing, please move). It sure works lot better than a horn at
> high speeds. No one ever misinterprets the signal. Or after
> passing at night a quick "thank you blink" corresponding to the
> daytime thank you of lifting your hand after passing. I am really
> never very sure what blinking of lights over here means. Could be
> anything from bad bulbs to police warning - but never a thank you.
>
> This gets back to the fact that in the USA we aren't expected to know
> any of the rules of the road, let alone courtesies, in order to hold
> a driver's license. Add to that the fact that if it was correctly
> understood, half the people in this country would interpret a passing
> flash as a challange. Truck drivers use the light-flash method of
> saying thank you, some car drivers understand it but seldom use it
> themselves. Generally I believe it is thought that the overtaken car
> had nothing to do with being passed (except for possibly being an
> obstruction), and so no thanks is required.
> On the other hand you in the USA have more of a tendency to road
> rage - or maybe it is mealy I who invoke what seems to me to be a
> number of middle finger signals if added up over say a years time.
> People also seem to just love riding my bumper - especially while
> standing at traffic lights easing forward - forward - forward - in oh
> so small baby steps closer and closer. Perhaps testing those
> automatic transmissions?
> As to the one-finger salute, my guess is that when you mix driving
> styles from different parts of the world folks are bound to be
> unhappy about it. I have no idea how you drive, so I can't say what
> the reason is for you, it might just be a normal greeting where you
> live ;)
>
> As to people riding your bumper, that's typical lousy American
> driving. The creeping at the stop lights is the same thing.
> Apparently people don't know how to bring their vehicles to a stop at
> a specific point in space so they use the golf strategy of laying up
> and then chipping on, or in this case getting somewhere close and
> then creeping up to close the gap. I refuse to play that game and so
> there will often be an increasingly large opening between my car and
> the one in front of me as the line compresses. Sorry, I don't feel
> like burning up my clutch .
> Big pick-up trucks seem to have a special propensity for wanting to
> drag race turbo-charged Miatas - but I am not sure of this is good
> manners or bad manners or just plain ignorance.
>
> I think it's safe to say that the majority of what you experience on
> the roads of the USA is a combination of bad manners and ignorance.
> The road Rage in the USA seems to be inverse to that of say the
> Germans. In the USA the crappier your car, the more road rage you
> seem to exhibit and always to NICER cars. In Germany the propensity
> toward road rage is definitely proportional to the PRICE of your
> vehicle and increases if the receiver of the rage has a vehicle of
> lesser value. Though owners of high end Mercedes are a bit more prone
> to this than their BMW counterparts.
> Yes, here we are taught to resent those who have success and have
> made something of their lives. I suppose in Germany they are taught
> to abuse those who haven't risen to a certain level of affluence.
>
> Happy driving :)
>
> -John
>
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> John Freas
> Red '90 Base-ish #7690
> Columbus, IN
> - Standard Disclaimer Applies -
> Team LS1,2, SP, the Gap...
> I love my Miata girl and my brand spankin' new Miata Baby!
> "I have no idea what those dimple things on the windshield frame are
> for."

This read-only message was archived from a public mail list.
Mail From: richard.murray (Murray, Richard)

I realize that this is a slow response, but I am still trying to catch
up.

Your statement about everybody merging as soon as possible solving the
bottleneck would be true only when the average rate of arrivals at the
back of the line was less than the rate of the slowest vehicle through
the zone. The reason is because of Chaos Theory, the situation is
described by the Theory of Constraints.

Let me explain; Think of the construction zone as a processor where only
one vehicle can start through at a time. Intuitively most people think
the processing rate is the average speed of the vehicles through the
zone times the length of the zone. It is not. The real rate is the speed
of the slowest vehicle (granny in the car or a heavy truck) through the
zone. Once the line slows down and piles up behind granny, the
congestion builds and traffic almost comes to a stop. The same effect is
seen in rush hour traffic where traffic comes to a stop even though
there isn't an accident. Only someone changing lanes and causing someone
else to hit on the brakes reducing 5MPH, then the next person has to
brake 10MPH to avoid hitting the car ahead, etc.

If you used the Theory of Constraints to simulate the construction zone
you would see that once traffic flow starts to pile up, it takes a huge
drop in arrivals to clear the jam. The shorter the length of vehicles in
a single line, the less impact granny has, the longer length of the
single line the worse. So having everybody get in line earlier only
makes the situation worse because granny is in the zone longer and the
empty space in front of her just gets longer. That is why really long
(think miles) construction zones have longer lines than short zones for
some bridge repair.

The only time it would not manner would be if everybody drove the same.

-----Original Message-----
From: (email redacted) [mailto:(email redacted)] On
Behalf Of Bob Hengen
Sent: Saturday, December 03, 2005 15:16
To: Jerry Houston; Hank; 'Miata mailing list'
Subject: Re: [Miata] (NMC) Courtesy - and NonSuch USA and Europe

I wouldn't say they're the ones doing it right. If everyone started to
merge
as soon as possible, then there would be no bottleneck -and slowdown- at
the
actual merge.
In a perfect world you would have two equal length lanes merging every
other
car. Then what you say would work, but it ain't gonna happen.
Ever drive in Japan? They all merge early and going to the front of the
other lane to squeeze in is a HUGE no-no.
Bob H.

This read-only message was archived from a public mail list.
Mail From: nora.hague (Nora Hague)

Flashing up here in the Great White Nawth could mean any one or all of the
following:

Facing traffic:
You flashed him/her;
Your lights are maladjusted;
There's a speed trap ahead;
A Miata wave in the winter;
One (or many) of your lights is (are) out;

Following traffic:
Get outta my way NOW I wanna pass you cuz yer a slowpoke;

Generally I consider it lucky if the rest of the traffic has any lights on
at all, as quite a few drivers are unacquainted with the idea of being seen,
even white cars in a blinding snow storm or any cars in a sluicing downpour.

Nora (imagine a Canadian flag here)
========================
and Banshee (imagine a '02 midnight blue Miata here)

nheh.ca/blue/C0874-bansheesmal.JPG
nheh.ca/blue/blue.htm ARRIVAL
nheh.ca/ HOME PAGE
(text siggie for the deprived folks on the digest mode)

This read-only message was archived from a public mail list.
Mail From: rhengen (Bob Hengen)

I don't disagree with anything you've said here.
By all means, if somebody is going slow and there's a gap - go for it. But
when it comes down to crunch time and there are no gaps left, don't expect
anybody (or me anyway) to gladly back off and let you in just because you
didn't or wouldn't merge when you had the chance or merely wanted to get to
the head of the line.
IMO that's just cutting in line, and nobody likes having that done to them.
If you don't do that, then we probably agree on the issue.
just my .02
Bob H.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Murray, Richard" <(email redacted)>
To: "Bob Hengen" <(email redacted)>; "Miata mailing list"
<(email redacted)>
Sent: Tuesday, December 06, 2005 2:52 PM
Subject: RE: [Miata] (NMC) Courtesy - and NonSuch USA and Europe


I realize that this is a slow response, but I am still trying to catch
up.

Your statement about everybody merging as soon as possible solving the
bottleneck would be true only when the average rate of arrivals at the
back of the line was less than the rate of the slowest vehicle through
the zone. The reason is because of Chaos Theory, the situation is
described by the Theory of Constraints.

Let me explain; Think of the construction zone as a processor where only
one vehicle can start through at a time. Intuitively most people think
the processing rate is the average speed of the vehicles through the
zone times the length of the zone. It is not. The real rate is the speed
of the slowest vehicle (granny in the car or a heavy truck) through the
zone. Once the line slows down and piles up behind granny, the
congestion builds and traffic almost comes to a stop. The same effect is
seen in rush hour traffic where traffic comes to a stop even though
there isn't an accident. Only someone changing lanes and causing someone
else to hit on the brakes reducing 5MPH, then the next person has to
brake 10MPH to avoid hitting the car ahead, etc.

If you used the Theory of Constraints to simulate the construction zone
you would see that once traffic flow starts to pile up, it takes a huge
drop in arrivals to clear the jam. The shorter the length of vehicles in
a single line, the less impact granny has, the longer length of the
single line the worse. So having everybody get in line earlier only
makes the situation worse because granny is in the zone longer and the
empty space in front of her just gets longer. That is why really long
(think miles) construction zones have longer lines than short zones for
some bridge repair.

The only time it would not manner would be if everybody drove the same.

-----Original Message-----
From: (email redacted) [mailto:(email redacted)] On
Behalf Of Bob Hengen
Sent: Saturday, December 03, 2005 15:16
To: Jerry Houston; Hank; 'Miata mailing list'
Subject: Re: [Miata] (NMC) Courtesy - and NonSuch USA and Europe

I wouldn't say they're the ones doing it right. If everyone started to
merge
as soon as possible, then there would be no bottleneck -and slowdown- at
the
actual merge.
In a perfect world you would have two equal length lanes merging every
other
car. Then what you say would work, but it ain't gonna happen.
Ever drive in Japan? They all merge early and going to the front of the
other lane to squeeze in is a HUGE no-no.
Bob H.

This read-only message was archived from a public mail list.
Mail From: rzander01 (Ron Zander)

I've been to a few schools too (though not in many years). The
instructors always told the class to stay out of the left lane unless
passing. They even went so far as to say that's the first place a cop
looks when he's looking for speeders. This was specific to hwy patrol
in california.

On Dec 6, 2005, at 11:30 AM, Jamie Ruderman wrote:

> It's too bad that driver training in the US (although I can only
> really
> speak for California) is so poor. I can't imagine anyone more
> apathetic
> than the DMV. Realistically, I doubt that there will be any stricter
> driving requirements enforced in my lifetime, but It would be nice if
> they would teach better road manners in the driver's ed classes. Here
> if you get a ticket you can go to traffic school to get it taken off
> your record - so I've been to my fair share of traffic schools (and
> then some... ;) ) but they never would tell you the correct way to
> merge, or what the left lane is for. I actually was a witness to the
> majority of the class agreeing that there was no reason to move out of
> the left lane if you were going the speed limit. It was all about the
> "Law" no credit given to common sense.
>
> ...stupid people should only get 1/2 a vote... :P ;)
>
> Jamie.
>
> --- John Freas <(email redacted)> wrote:
>
>> Previously on Courtesy, Rob Argento said...
>> Perhaps I should explain where I find American drivers more
>> courteous. It is seldom in driving situations at speeds but often
>> at traffic lights when someone else is trying to change lanes or
>> trying to come in from a parking area. you have more of a tendency to
>> let others come in before you in queue. That is seldom experienced
>> in Europe. But in France and Italy we counter that with the
>> Toot-and-Drive technique which usually gains you access to overly
>> crowded traffic circles and merging traffic lanes. (when you get good
>> at it you do it with your eyes somewhat closed or at the very least
>> without turning you head at all.)
>> It depends on where you are, but yes we do often give others a break.
>> More so in suburban areas I'd wager, and less so in larger
>> metropolitan areas. If you're driving on Manhattan you'll find that
>> you have to be a lot more assertive to get where you need to go, or
>> even to keep from being shoved off the street. There's a whole style
>> of driving there that combines smart thinking, awareness and
>> assertiveness. It can be very stressful, but it's also a lot like
>> what you describe above.
>> Never in Europe has anyone shouted out to me "NICE CAR!" It
>> certainly has happens many times here in the USA. But in Europe we
>> ALWAYS wave to one another (with same type of vehicle). I have not
>> seen that over here.
>> I've been waved at, and had waves returned, but it's hit & miss.
>> Less of a common thing here, probably because most of us drive boring
>> cars that don't inspire any feeling of community.
>> In Europe we use blinking of high beam (even daytime) as a signal
>> (I am passing, please move). It sure works lot better than a horn at
>> high speeds. No one ever misinterprets the signal. Or after
>> passing at night a quick "thank you blink" corresponding to the
>> daytime thank you of lifting your hand after passing. I am really
>> never very sure what blinking of lights over here means. Could be
>> anything from bad bulbs to police warning - but never a thank you.
>>
>> This gets back to the fact that in the USA we aren't expected to know
>> any of the rules of the road, let alone courtesies, in order to hold
>> a driver's license. Add to that the fact that if it was correctly
>> understood, half the people in this country would interpret a passing
>> flash as a challange. Truck drivers use the light-flash method of
>> saying thank you, some car drivers understand it but seldom use it
>> themselves. Generally I believe it is thought that the overtaken car
>> had nothing to do with being passed (except for possibly being an
>> obstruction), and so no thanks is required.
>> On the other hand you in the USA have more of a tendency to road
>> rage - or maybe it is mealy I who invoke what seems to me to be a
>> number of middle finger signals if added up over say a years time.
>> People also seem to just love riding my bumper - especially while
>> standing at traffic lights easing forward - forward - forward - in oh
>> so small baby steps closer and closer. Perhaps testing those
>> automatic transmissions?
>> As to the one-finger salute, my guess is that when you mix driving
>> styles from different parts of the world folks are bound to be
>> unhappy about it. I have no idea how you drive, so I can't say what
>> the reason is for you, it might just be a normal greeting where you
>> live ;)
>>
>> As to people riding your bumper, that's typical lousy American
>> driving. The creeping at the stop lights is the same thing.
>> Apparently people don't know how to bring their vehicles to a stop at
>> a specific point in space so they use the golf strategy of laying up
>> and then chipping on, or in this case getting somewhere close and
>> then creeping up to close the gap. I refuse to play that game and so
>> there will often be an increasingly large opening between my car and
>> the one in front of me as the line compresses. Sorry, I don't feel
>> like burning up my clutch .
>> Big pick-up trucks seem to have a special propensity for wanting to
>> drag race turbo-charged Miatas - but I am not sure of this is good
>> manners or bad manners or just plain ignorance.
>>
>> I think it's safe to say that the majority of what you experience on
>> the roads of the USA is a combination of bad manners and ignorance.
>> The road Rage in the USA seems to be inverse to that of say the
>> Germans. In the USA the crappier your car, the more road rage you
>> seem to exhibit and always to NICER cars. In Germany the propensity
>> toward road rage is definitely proportional to the PRICE of your
>> vehicle and increases if the receiver of the rage has a vehicle of
>> lesser value. Though owners of high end Mercedes are a bit more prone
>> to this than their BMW counterparts.
>> Yes, here we are taught to resent those who have success and have
>> made something of their lives. I suppose in Germany they are taught
>> to abuse those who haven't risen to a certain level of affluence.
>>
>> Happy driving :)
>>
>> -John
>>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> ----------
>> John Freas
>> Red '90 Base-ish #7690
>> Columbus, IN
>> - Standard Disclaimer Applies -
>> Team LS1,2, SP, the Gap...
>> I love my Miata girl and my brand spankin' new Miata Baby!
>> "I have no idea what those dimple things on the windshield frame are
>> for."
>
> _______________________________________________
> Miata mailing list
> (email redacted)
> ftl.realbig.com/mailman/listinfo/miata

This read-only message was archived from a public mail list.
Mail From: richard.murray (Murray, Richard)

Having observed traffic behavior here in the Midwest, I would say that
90 percent of the time there will be gaps because people only watch the
taillights directly in front of them and don't take their foot off the
brake until a half second, or more, after the car ahead has started
moving. Since they take another second to slowly push the gas, and with
the normal operation of physics, they invariably open up a couple car
lengths of space.

If a hot shoe takes off without a gap I know that there will be 4 or 5
car lengths behind him. If it is congested to the point of coming to a
complete stop then the most efficient way for everybody to get through,
in the shortest time, is to form two equal lines and "zipper" through.
If someone thinks he is in a bank queue and insists on getting in the
longest line, then that is his problem.

I have noticed here in the Midwest that if it is the right lane that is
closed down some people will get over earlier than if it is the left
lane closed.

-----Original Message-----
From: Bob Hengen [mailto:(email redacted)]
Sent: Tuesday, December 06, 2005 16:13
To: Murray, Richard; Miata mailing list
Subject: Re: [Miata] (NMC) Courtesy - and NonSuch USA and Europe

I don't disagree with anything you've said here.
By all means, if somebody is going slow and there's a gap - go for it.
But
when it comes down to crunch time and there are no gaps left, don't
expect
anybody (or me anyway) to gladly back off and let you in just because
you
didn't or wouldn't merge when you had the chance or merely wanted to get
to
the head of the line.
IMO that's just cutting in line, and nobody likes having that done to
them.
If you don't do that, then we probably agree on the issue.
just my .02
Bob H.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Murray, Richard" <(email redacted)>
To: "Bob Hengen" <(email redacted)>; "Miata mailing list"
<(email redacted)>
Sent: Tuesday, December 06, 2005 2:52 PM
Subject: RE: [Miata] (NMC) Courtesy - and NonSuch USA and Europe


I realize that this is a slow response, but I am still trying to catch
up.

Your statement about everybody merging as soon as possible solving the
bottleneck would be true only when the average rate of arrivals at the
back of the line was less than the rate of the slowest vehicle through
the zone. The reason is because of Chaos Theory, the situation is
described by the Theory of Constraints.

Let me explain; Think of the construction zone as a processor where only
one vehicle can start through at a time. Intuitively most people think
the processing rate is the average speed of the vehicles through the
zone times the length of the zone. It is not. The real rate is the speed
of the slowest vehicle (granny in the car or a heavy truck) through the
zone. Once the line slows down and piles up behind granny, the
congestion builds and traffic almost comes to a stop. The same effect is
seen in rush hour traffic where traffic comes to a stop even though
there isn't an accident. Only someone changing lanes and causing someone
else to hit on the brakes reducing 5MPH, then the next person has to
brake 10MPH to avoid hitting the car ahead, etc.

If you used the Theory of Constraints to simulate the construction zone
you would see that once traffic flow starts to pile up, it takes a huge
drop in arrivals to clear the jam. The shorter the length of vehicles in
a single line, the less impact granny has, the longer length of the
single line the worse. So having everybody get in line earlier only
makes the situation worse because granny is in the zone longer and the
empty space in front of her just gets longer. That is why really long
(think miles) construction zones have longer lines than short zones for
some bridge repair.

The only time it would not manner would be if everybody drove the same.

-----Original Message-----
From: (email redacted) [mailto:(email redacted)] On
Behalf Of Bob Hengen
Sent: Saturday, December 03, 2005 15:16
To: Jerry Houston; Hank; 'Miata mailing list'
Subject: Re: [Miata] (NMC) Courtesy - and NonSuch USA and Europe

I wouldn't say they're the ones doing it right. If everyone started to
merge
as soon as possible, then there would be no bottleneck -and slowdown- at
the
actual merge.
In a perfect world you would have two equal length lanes merging every
other
car. Then what you say would work, but it ain't gonna happen.
Ever drive in Japan? They all merge early and going to the front of the
other lane to squeeze in is a HUGE no-no.
Bob H.

This read-only message was archived from a public mail list.
Mail From: jonesmb (Jones)

> I have noticed here in the Midwest that if it is the right lane that is
> closed down some people will get over earlier than if it is the left
> lane closed.

now that I have not noticed. I will have to look out for that

jmb